sense of like desperation that I had when I first started raising. I thought only I could see it that I was desperate

for money. But it was just obvious that I had no self-confidence. I was deeply insecure and I didn’t believe in my

idea. I’m sure you’ve seen that in the pictures you’re getting now. Like what are the three things you want to avoid

to not look desperate? Today I’m joined by a game founder who’s personally built and shipped over 100 games solo and

recently raised $6 million in VC funding at 28 years old.

The part of convincing a venture capitalist to give you money or like how to seem like an interesting investment

opportunity. That was stuff that I basically had to learn. Yeah. From doing it very incorrectly hundred times. I

basically stopped trusting my own intuition. This person gave me a million bucks. like they should guide the game

direction. Like I need to make them happy. Realizing I need to trust that they trusted me with their money.

We recorded this one week from her latest launch and we go into how she stays focused in an industry full of

noise and her personal founder story. The main thing is that like this moment in the game, you run out of steps. The

only way to keep playing is to go on a walk. So that’s where we take you from the digital realm to the physical. They

actually invested in us because they saw my dedication to the fitness class. This

class ran every day for 1,00 days at the same time every single day.

From someone who is turning daily steps into monster catching bullet hell, this episode’s guest and CEO of Tofa Games,

Jenny Shu. Jenny, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Harry. Thank you for coming. All right, for everyone at home, you’re in for a treat.

So, long-distance runner, I know this sounds weird, fitness instructor,

Forbes 30 under 30 honore and CEO of Talofa Games. So, I want to paint a

quick picture because there’s a lot we could get into today and I want to paint a picture for people at home. So running

and making games at age 12, studied computer science at MIT, shipped over 10

mobile titles with over 10 million downloads and also part of A16Z speedrun

program and a lot of other stuff. So the main thing I would love to paint a

picture at home today is Jenny’s been around and what I getting into today is

actually not what you might think. It’s more about founder focus cuz you do so

much and you’re launching in how many days?

Seven days. So I’m very happy that I’m one of your priorities over the last seven days of

launch because I can imagine. How are you feeling right now? Nervous as heck but also feels like the

end of a race like we’ve won but proud.

Yeah. Awesome. So, for people at home, we’re going to cover three subtopics here. So, we’re going to cover how to

stay focused as a game founder. Also, kind of how do you actually tune out the noise, Jenny’s fundraising journey,

because it’s actually quite awesome. And also, product is king. Kind of like how

do we actually make the product good? So, I want to start with kind of how

this all started, Jenny. So, can you explain how did you actually get started in games? because you were telling me

before we started recording here and it was very very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks for all the the

nice intro and the kind words. I I got started in games really by accident.

Like I was a huge huge anime fan, huge Pokemon fan. Like I really loved playing

those games in like I’d sneak a Game Boy Micro in elementary school into class and start playing Pokemon Leaf Green

under my desk. So, I had this fascination for Pokemon and the universe and I got started drawing actually

before I got into making games. I drew a lot and especially I drew a lot in MS Paint. So, like very very ugly pixel

art, but it was a start. And what I realized was that there are a lot of people online that also like Pokemon.

And because I was actually a very quiet, introverted, awkward child, I found that

the internet communities that I posted this Pokemon fan art, I posted it on a

site called deviant art.com. There’s quite a few Pokemon fans on there. So, I slowly started finding like

fans who loved it, wanted me to draw more Pikachu, more Charmanders, like pretty much every new

Pokemon that came out, I draw. And that turned into me drawing in Adobe Flash

and realizing that Flash could also be used for animations and then animating for the first time. Like Pikachu’s

blinking now, Pikachu’s jumping now. And just the more I posted, the more I’d

find like my things would get like one view, 10 views, one like, but that was

already more validation I got in than in the real world. So, I just did more and more and more until the point I wish I

learned like what coding was. And then my Pikachu started moving. And then my Pikachu started like blasting and like

doing more fun, unique mechanics. And that actually became games. So my first

game I created when I was 12 as a result of all this Pokemon fan art, fan animations, and it was a Pokemon fan

game. Awesome. Let’s fast forward a bit. So

you actually funded your college with games, which I don’t think a lot of people can say that.

Yes. When did you start to realize that games were serious business, let’s say?

Yeah. Yeah. I would say like, yeah, this Pokemon games when they first came out like didn’t to me immediately say like

you’re going to turn this into a career. Like that was way more fun. But like as I started some of my games like when I

was yeah between age 12 to 18, I ended up making a hundred hundred different games mostly in flash. So hundred of

those games I put on sites like Congregate, Newgrounds, Deviant Art, every Flashportal website that existed.

And some of them went more viral, like they would get tens of thousands of plays in the first 24 hours. And I took

10 of those and put them onto the mobile app stores. And this was like 2014

through 20 um 16 era where I didn’t need

didn’t have any marketing budget, but I would put the apps there. I just make a lot of them. And then I ended up

learning about inapp purchases and rewarded ads. And every time I’d learn about these monetization tools, I just

throw like a button in the game. 3.99 to remove all ads and see what happens. And

suddenly like hundreds of people were buying that turned into thousands of people watching ads, buying really

random things in the game store over the course of like the three four years of

high school. And then that turned into enough money to pay for college. But at the time it was like just really seeing

like what people learning as I went and testing things out, not expecting to

sell anything, but realizing that like all these things I was experimenting with were actually what big studios were

doing too. I was just doing it really fast because I was a one onewoman studio.

That’s so unique. And I’ve been from the recruitment side being asked a lot of

advice like how do I get started? How do I get my first role? And my cousin’s in this situation actually. So I kind of

sponsored him to go through a game design course and he still hasn’t got his first role in the games industry and

he’s I think made like eight to nine games. But hearing you say that story, I

don’t know why it sounded so obvious. Like of course you know I made 100 games. I put them on the flash sites cuz

of course you do. 10 did really well. I put them on the mobile store. Ah, might as well add ads. But I’m guessing people

hear that story from you and think, “Oh, I want to try that.” But then they don’t try that. Like what is the X factor

here? Like why were you able to do it versus someone who says they want to but

then doesn’t? Do you know? Um, yeah, there was like a little bit of the story I forgot to mention, which is that I

really leaned into like weird like I I I grew up in the age of like a

like Five Nights at Freddy’s, Undertale, like games that were like quirky but explored like psychological horror kind

of more dark human side of nature themes. And I realized like the internet

loves that stuff, but it’s like definitely edgy. like it was very edgy, very odd. Um, and I loved it. Like I was

actually really good at making like dating sims and horror combined. Like

dating horror kind of like Doky Doi Literature Club. Yeah, I used to binge that content.

I was on Congregate when you were mentioning, but like the Doky Doi Literature Club, I just had a phase. I

don’t know why. I like just watch like every YouTuber under the sun making content about it because it was just so

weird. I was like, “Sure.” Like I remember having that phase in high school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like before that

went mainstream that was my genre. So like that shamelessness I’d say was what

set me apart. It was part of my brand was like this. I was also under an

internet pseudo name. So nobody knew like I was Jenny Shu. They knew I was Chibi Xi Chibishi like a fake name. And

nobody knew like what gender, what age. They were like, “You must be a team of

people.” And I was like, “I’m you had those comments.” Yeah. Yeah. They’re like, “Oh, you all

do such a good job.” I was like, “I’m just one. I’m not gonna tell you.”

Why Why were you wanting to be anonymous at the start? Because you were like, “Yeah,

yeah. I just heard that the internet was a scary place.” And also, I didn’t

necessarily like my real life persona because I was like a very antisocial

person. So like inventing myself as this anonymous internet creative was a bit of

a like it was different from my real life persona. I was suddenly popular. I was like somebody people looked forward

to seeing what my games were and it was like popular online unpopular real life.

Yeah. Today is also very exciting but I want to double click on that. Like you mentioned you made those weird games.

I’m wondering for people like now there’s more games going out there. There’s more games going out

there. But I’ve time and time again on this podcast people say you need to make

something that a YouTuber or a streamer will want to pick up and from doing some

research your games did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if someone wanted to have that

happen to their game just based on your personal experience like what would you tell them? How do you make your game get picked up by a

streamer? Is there a secret? Yeah. Yeah. I think even when I was

doing it at the time, the goal wasn’t necessarily to get a streamer to pick it

up. It was actually the opposite. It was like, what can I make that is just so

shocking and like weird and outside of what somebody would expect from a game

that like it would push the boundary of game and digital medium in like I just

loved experimental stuff. And I realized now looking back that was actually prime

influencer streamer content. It just like back then it wasn’t as much of a strategy. It was just what happened was

like people would pick up games and play them and they’re like can’t believe this game would make me talk into my

microphone and the character hears. But now that’s like everywhere. So I actually feel like the thing I would

advise people do is actually think more on like what makes somebody pick it up in the

first place instead of like just building um something to be streamed for the sake

of being streamed. It’s like why do people stream it? It’s because it’s like unique. It’s weird. It’s like shocking.

Like something emotionally that it resonates with somebody out there online for. And also, I started with like very

niche streamers, like people who did Undertale content. I knew they liked Undertale. So, I made a game that was a

bullet hell game. And I would reach out to like maybe 50 to 100 streamers cold.

Just say, “Hey, love your content. I made this game and I think you would like it.” and just send them like a a

key or a version of it early. Sure, email like nothing else to it. Yeah, just just email and also at some

point I started making fan games of the creators too. Like I

personalized outreach through personalized games. Yeah. So like just really like stuff where I was like I want the streamer to

feel like I care that they stream my game too and they’re not just one of 100. So there is a streamer Mauricu who

basically like every video he’d shout me out. He’d be like this is a game Shabishi made for me or can’t wait to

play the next Shabishi game. And like the viewers started to like be like when are you going to stream the next Shibishi game. So it became just like

more like I never talked to the guy but like directly face to face ever but we emailed and I’d tell him when the new

game came out. So it became a relationship at the end of the day. Yeah. Does he know who you are now? I don’t

think so. I am How cool is that? Yeah, that’s so cool. That is awesome. Lovely.

So, that takes us to today. So, you’re a week away from launch. You raised over 6 million for Talo and hearing you tell

the story of experimental like am I wrong in saying like this feels a bit

experimental as well? Like we’re combining a few things here. Yes. Yeah. Uh definitely many twisty

windy turns and going from like single anonymous woman online to running a

team, people on payroll, investors putting money, expectations

and building something that is in a even more experimental space than where I started. I would say like with the games

I made as a child, they’re experimental in genre but not experimental in mechanic form. Like they were mobile

games and that was it. Um, but they did some fourth wall breaking, genre mashing, shock value. Now the game is

both a genre mash and it includes fitness, which is another part of my identity that I hadn’t explored as a

teen. So I would say yeah, basically like took that and then like decided to make an even harder challenge. Uh

because I think that same through line runs through my entire like career in life is like be different, stand out,

but also partially because I just want to do things that people have not tried or are like seemingly impossible or too

weird or nobody thinks it’s possible, so might as well try. That’s like somehow

ingrained in my brain. So yes, definitely still very experimental. Yeah, I’m very excited. I’m on your

website now. I’m going to share my screen if you don’t mind. Yeah, go ahead. So, I’ve just been watching this little

trailer on Loop. So, do you mind explaining just because I’m sure people like me were curious at home listening

to this like what’s the premise here? Yes. Yeah. So, Monster Walk is the name of the game and it’s a character

collector game, but the main mechanic is exploration. So you can see here like the anime style, but the idea is that

your steps in your real world translate into the game. And there’s these like

little mini games you can fight like they’ll show here that are Undertale inspired. So it is actually going back

to like my old indie days. Yeah. But you can like collect a team of monsters that are lightly inspired by

Pokemonesque art style. Um we’ve got like base building mechanics. These are more the meta of the game, but the

primary thing is that like yeah, there’s also this like flirt mechanic that’s also kind of alluding back to my old

days. But yeah, the main thing is that like this moment in the game, you run out of

steps. The only way to keep playing is to go on a walk. So that’s where we take you from the digital realm to the

physical. And by making the game one where you’re building emotional bonds

with monsters, with characters, they’re all sentient creatures, too. They speak to you. They don’t just say their name

like in Pokemon. There’s this like desire to collect, create, and befriend

that makes you also want to take more steps. So that’s like the whole thesis behind the game is like can we make a

game so intuitive to the mechanic of real life walking that like you get

quote unquote addicted to the game play and you’re also thinking about walking in terms of like uh like you’re

transcending digital physical realm because you’re literal

number of steps that you take in the real world translates to amount of time you can play in the game. So it just

like starts to like take all these positive associations with something that maybe is more negative to somebody

and like we’re just going for behavioral change. So if we can like rewire your

brain to think of steps is like the way I’m going to catch my next little Pokemon and as my next way to get to the

region that I really want to get to, but it’s like a thousand steps away. like then we can actually start to see

stories of people who maybe only liked games coming in but now are starting to take 10k steps per day

or yeah two times the amount of steps they usually take. So that’s why I think the work I do now is way more fulfilling

because the stories I hear are not just like oh that game was so silly, it was so funny, made me laugh. It’s actual

stories of change like I am now losing weight. I am now uh we get a story um

stories that are like telling us about how people get out of bed finally and they’re combating their depression. Like

these are like real people and that’s what makes this work so different than

the work I did as a child. Beautiful. That’s really beautiful. And I can imagine that’s motivating for the team

as well, knowing that like I’m going to say like not every mobile game has this purpose, right? I think this

this feels good. I can imagine like you probably mentioned that in the interview and there’s probably people who quite positive about it.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely also a recruiting tactic like to having a

missiondriven company. Like a lot of people we work with like come solely because of the mission and take pay

cuts. They work really hard because they know that what they’re doing is not just like a casino or gambling app or something that

is a clone of something else because it made a lot of money. Of course, we want to make money and stay alive as a

business, but just that bottom line of like we are built on the foundation of something already good helps us so much

with like the people who we bring on are self- selected to care. So, it’s been a

good filter for people who are like kind of default good people who join and then

yeah, so that’s actually been like really interesting on the company building side. Awesome. Beautiful. Lovely. I want to

for the people at home cuz one of my most famous sorry most viewed episodes

and LinkedIn has a new feature now where I can track how many times someone sends my post to someone else and the last

time I did a post a podcast it was about fundraising and that one had 120 sends.

So 120 people took that link and sent it to a friend. So for those people who are here who are like I want to help raise

money you recently raised money. So what what did it actually take? I want you to maybe crush some dreams or maybe paint a

picture of like what it actually takes. Like I’d love to hear that story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a Yeah.

Feel free to stop me at any point, but it’s definitely been I’d say in terms of like building games and just like the

DNA of like game creator creative that I am, that part comes easy. Like I mean it

is hard. There are other problems with like building products in today’s day and age. But that stuff like I can think

of stories in my sleep or in the shower and I want to build them. So that’s always there. But then the part of

convincing a venture capitalist to give you money or like how to seem like an interesting investment opportunity. That

was stuff that I basically had to learn. Yeah. From doing it very incorrectly hundred times. And like I’m still now

I’m at the point where I’m even like becoming a like venture scout for entry.

They like recently opened up their scout program. So like now I’m also getting pitches myself and like I just have such

a deep empathy now for both sides of the process. But yeah, six years ago like when I was first starting the company

had no idea. So, um, like my first like learning I’d say was that actually like

this sense of like desperation that I had when I first started raising. I

thought only I could see it that I was desperate for money and I was like really trying to fake it till I made it.

But it was just obvious I think to everyone in the room that I had no self-confidence. I was deeply insecure

and I didn’t believe in my idea. So like these three things like were basically just amplified through the process of

raising capture venture capital money and I like I did not realize how like

the way I showed up was actually like like it was negative signal for all the

VCs. Let’s break that down, Jenny. So I’m sure you’ve seen that in the pitches you’re getting now. Like yeah,

what are the three things you want to avoid to not look desperate?

Yeah. Yeah, I do think part of it was like this was a ongoing journey too was

like in a way like believing in something unshakable and

then using that as like the basis for my pitch and like that I used to pitch like

when I first started pitching I was like telling people this is a billion dollar idea and I did not believe that a single

moment because I did not think it was actually possible to be a billion dollar idea. So like now I don’t actually say

that. I say like what I can tell you is like the truth is like I am a very fit

founder. Like I run all the time. I’m like super mentally disciplined. I’m

physically like at my kind of height of my like athletic career. Let’s go to

berries. Like I can lift more than you. I can probably run faster than you. But it like demonstrates that I am like for

sure living that part of my life like the founder market fit and that I’m like unshakably confident in. And then the

other parts of like let me gamify it like I know I built games like my entire life. Like I know I can do this. And

then you mix those two and now I just say like I love this stuff. Like this is my entire identity. Like you believe in

my company it’s because you believe that I care so deeply about these two things. Not that it will turn into a

billion-dollar opportunity. Uh so like I kind of just flip it. It’s like instead of pitching something I don’t quite

believe in or really want I think the VCs want to hear, I pitch what makes me

like me. And that changed kind of everything. So like my first dollar came

from somebody who came to me from an unconventional source. Like it was from

a fitness class I taught over COVID on Zoom. So it was like the most unlikely

place like to find a venture capitalist. And I was pitching people like this whole time. But when I taught the class,

I was the instructor, so I wasn’t thinking about pitching. And uh when I ended up getting like pitching the

person, my pitch was kind of the same, like still a little shaky. I was telling them, I don’t even know like what I’m

going to build. All I know is I like fitness. I like games. and they actually invested in us because they saw my

dedication to the fitness class. Um, this class ran every day for 10,00 days

at the same time every single day for three years. They every single day I did it. Oh wow. I misread that in my research. I

thought you did a thousand classes over like a long time, but no. A thousand

days in a row. Wait, Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. I I also traveled. I was in

different time zones. I was There were days I show up and I’m crying because I had a bad day, but I still taught class.

Okay. What did old Jenny tell you that you had to do? Is that was that a goal? Thousand days. Like that’s crazy to me.

So you for a thousand days did a fitness class even when you know you felt bad and on Christmas. So like why why did

you do that? Uh it was somewhat stubbornness and like I have a few

principles I live by and one is like you do what you say and I said to people who

took my class I am going to teach every day and I will be here in a time when

like COVID and all that is so unpredictable. I will be here every day at 3 p.m. So, it just became like the

unshakable truth and like my calendar just had it blocked out every day. And like I didn’t know how long it would

run, but I told myself as long as people show up, I’ll be there. So like it actually did end up like COVID ended,

people started going back to their lives and like I did see that like once the

supply or the demand kind of started to feel like it was coming off like maybe a day only at our peak we had close to 100

people show up every single day and it started to go to maybe like two or three and I was like but there are

still people like I still want to do it but that was about when the like 800 class was and I was like let Let me end

this on a high note. Let’s like end it on a thousand. This is a definitive end. Uh everyone who came in the past like I

invite you to join me for my last few classes. And on the last class, it was like a 30 minute class. I said thank you

to everyone and then we said this is it. And then it ended. So, it was actually like it ended at a time I didn’t

initially plan, but it was like 50 people came back for that last class

after like we only had maybe like five two to five people show up for like the last year or not the last year, the last

few months was like two to five people. It was like basically dying. And then the last class seeing everyone back just

thanking me for doing it over the last three years was like, okay, this was worth the like somehow stubborn me that

refused to let it die, but then I I ended up letting it die and yeah, it was just like a very beautiful thousand

days. Yeah. No, I think it’s very beautiful. And yeah, I might have not used the word like let it die cuz like that’s

gorgeous. You completed a project like that’s so cool. Beautiful. Um, I read

here just to because the the story is great. Like from reading here like over

a hundred pitches to investors and you’re quite young. You’re Can you

I’m going to ask you. Sorry. I don’t know if I should ask, but I just want to paint a picture. Um, how old are you?

Yeah, I I just turned 28 a few months ago. So, yeah, 28. So like 3 years ago you

were at GDC 25 and I read here like you

might have thought about maybe not doing game development anymore. Did I read that right?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was actually 2019. So I was

22 at the time at QDC. Yeah. So that was the one where I uh like I had like a

little mini stint at another startup right after college but it was only six

months and I was there for such a short amount of time that I but I already knew

I did not want to work there after those six months. So I ended up leaving and unfortunately all my friends had had

startups at that time or already had uh offers to join either startups, Google

kind of big tech and I just didn’t. So I showed up to GDC kind of recently having left this company I helped start and I

was like defeated already. First time um in my career not really knowing what I

should do because I I knew that starting a game studio was hard. I knew that doing a company was hard. I just failed

at doing one in just six months. And then I had very little faith that I

could do it again because I was just tired. Like I was telling people at the time that I felt like a shell of myself

and I just like lay on the ground and be like what is the point? Like why do I try? um like and I was yeah really just

like missing that version of me that was the creator who made games every day said I was just laying around every day

wondering why I wasn’t that person I used to be and that’s when that GDC happened. Um and I’d gone to GDC like

every year in college. So that would have been my my fifth GDC.

Yeah. That I I had this kind of first time in my life. I don’t know what I’m doing. Do I even belong?

How’d you get it back? Yeah. Yeah. It was this moment at GDC when I was just very honest with

everyone I met. I was like, I don’t know what to do. I thought I could do a studio. Couldn’t do it. I thought I I

have another chance now, but should I? And yeah, just basically asking around like, do you have a job for me? Like

anything. Like I’ll take anything. Um and this person Ninian Wang, she used to

be at Niantic. when I talked to her, she still was. She told me about this contest that Niantic was hosting. And

she was like, “Oh, it actually like applications closed like in two days.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” Like, uh,

well, if you’re at Niantic contest, I love Niantic, like Pokemon Go. I was like, “I’ve never combined fitness and

games. Like, maybe I should apply.” But it was AR and I’d never done AR. It was

in Unity. I had never really built in Unity. Maybe I I’d built one game before in college and I but I had nothing

better to do so I was like might as well just throw in an application. Um it also had a minimum team size of three to five

and I asked I was like I’ve made all these games as a child, one person, millions of downloads. Can I just do it

one person? And they told me no. Uh you have to have a team. And then I ended up

putting down two people on the application with me and filmed a video with like a photo of them. And I was

like, “Well, if we get in, I’ll let them know, but I won’t tell them I applied with them.” And then, yeah. So, then

when we got accepted, I had to tell my brother and my dad that they had to do this contest with me and they kept going

because they had to. So, that’s how I started working with my family. So, kind of similar to you,

Harry, I was like like I they they can’t refuse. So, in my case, they can refuse.

I didn’t ask, but I knew I trusted them like to show up for me. And that’s how we got into the Niantic Beyond Reality

Contest 2019 that really kicked off Talofa and everything after. But it was

like this strange moment where like I even almost didn’t hit submit on the

application because I thought it didn’t make sense or I was like I I’m truly unqualified. I’m like one person faking

it as three. I have no Unity experience. They want five. And I like texted my

parents. I was like I shouldn’t apply to this, right? Like this is a bad idea. And they said just apply. And I was like okay. And I hit the button. So it was so

so many like moments away from not happening but it did. Yeah. ask what would you tell Jenny back

then if you would like because there’s so many things here right like the fact

like for me click and apply because you know why not right

the yeah I was just it’s I’m just looking at the universe the forks in the universe

where you don’t click apply and that’s so likely but you did and I’m wondering for anyone in a

similar position Right. Mhm. Like what would you tell that person who may be hesitating?

Yeah. Yeah. I would say like like you create luck is something I’ve

realized over the last few years is like I’ve been lucky but only because I’ve

filled out every form in the end. Like every scholarship form like award thing.

I’ve just thrown myself out there. And it kind of reminds me of when I just threw my games out there, even if

they’re a little odd or weird. It just like the ego is like often something that gets in our way. It’s like, oh,

either like you’re too good for this or you’re not good enough. Like both of those could be true. It’s like I think

this is an opportunity below me. I think that starts to happen as you get older. But I at the time was like I am below

this opportunity. I’m like not mentally ready. I’m not all of that. But uh I do

think like in my life right now I just always apply no matter what because the

worst that happens is that you wasted 30 minutes an hour on the application. Best case you get in and it’s like the

biggest surprise of your life. Um and I yeah I think I’m just like if I see an

application I’ll fill it out and that’s just how I how I live my life unless it’s like super incorrect and I’m

actually not free at those times and I can’t make it. there’s no way I’m doing it, then I don’t apply. But in any other

case, I just tell myself like it’s probably just my ego and I just need to

suck it up and do it. Yeah. No, 100%. And for me, it’s happened very much by accident as well.

Like I didn’t plan to ghost right for founders even two years ago. The way it

happened was I started a business and I was going to do the company employer branding for game studios. That was the

original plan. And then I had a week of calls booked and it was around 12

studios, a few mobile gaming studios who told me two weeks prior, we’re interested. Had all the call and

everyone just said, “Yeah, no.” I was like, “Oh [ __ ] I have no plan.” Yeah. And one of those studios I was like,

“Hey, do you want to be on a podcast?” And he said, “Sure.” We got on the podcast, started my podcast, the gaming playbook, the one

you’re on. And it was an audio only podcast. I edited it. I had a book here. I did the page turn with this book to

make the sound effect of the intro. And then that guest I always ask, who do you know

that would be a good guest? He recommended me someone who then became my second guest. And that person

recommended me someone who was my first ever client. And through those couple hours of conversations, just by asking

who would you know who would benefit from a chat, it then started his thing. And now I’m somehow running payroll with

both my brothers. So, it’s like I I could not predict that from 18 months ago, but it’s almost like I like the the

saying like do cool [ __ ] Cool [ __ ] will happen. I don’t know how it will happen, but it will happen. And I think

you definitely embody that for sure. Like the thousand fitness classes, I bet

you’ve brought that up in a VC chat and they were really really happy when they heard it. Like I can imagine like that’s

just dedication. That’s what they want to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do believe in

that. Like even your story too reminds me of like sometimes like you’re just the

universe has a different plan for what you the path you’re on might not be the right one. And then like just being able

to pick up on like maybe this is not working. I should get off this path and try another one. And that’s not failing.

That’s just uh listening to what feels like intuitive. like what is your uh

what is the thing that you are called to do? It might not be what you want to do, but might as well like follow it and see

where it goes. So, for sure. Yeah. All right, Jenny, I’m going to ask your permission for something.

Yeah. So, you gave me the topic of founder focus and I might be the worst example. I

cannot focus. So I very similar to you at the start of my business it

everything just felt easy because all my job was marketing. I wanted to get more business and write for my couple

clients. And back then I thought it was so much work. But then as soon as clients turn to like eight and then the

podcast is going now weekly conferences, all this stuff, it’s like, oh my god.

Because back then I used to really pride myself on working really hard, getting my LinkedIn post out, doing my weekly

podcast. And everyone back then said, “Oh my god, you’re doing so much.” Now

on paper, I’m doing so much more. But I feel like I’m doing so little. But

back then, I never had that self I don’t know, self-awareness or I wasn’t putting myself down. I I was almost arrogant. I

was like, I’m on top of the world right now. But now that I’m doing more, I feel like I’m doing less. And I’m like, ah,

it’s all I don’t it’s like practically sometimes I’m going to be a bit personal

like I don’t know if you felt this where I wake up and I have five to 10 small

things I need to do and I know how to do them but because there’s more than five or 10 things, I delay waking up or I,

you know, play Clash Royale, which I’ve gotten into recently, and then have a very long breakfast and then I get to

the day like, oh, I don’t have enough time to do that one thing. Let me do the thing I really like. Let me write my LinkedIn post.

It just starts, you know, pushing things over. Where old Harry had no choice. He

had a deadline and he had very few things to do. So, just do the work. But now that I have almost too many things,

I find it hard to focus. So, to recap, long way of saying, how do you focus?

Like, how do you stay focused now that you’ve got a thousand things to do plus, you know, Harry asking you questions on

a podcast now? Yeah. Yeah. No, your story here is very relatable as like the uh it was very

similar like when I started I was just making games like age 12 to 18 even up

to like 22 I was just like making games solo and it was like first principles build a game market it put it out there

it makes money I restart make another one repeat and it was like so simple and I was like I’m crushing it I’m like my

games are ranking higher than EA I must be like more than they’re right next to the Sims on the top charts like I am the

queen of game development and I like had this like massive yeah thing on chip on

my shoulder. I was like I am the best and I don’t need any training. No one’s got anything on me. And then I just like

I think it’s like the Dunar curve of confidence. I was like right at the beginning of my journey at my most

confident and then I started realizing and like the phenomenon you said of like on paper doing more feeling like you’re

doing less like I felt that way too because I started realizing how much could be done like yeah you can go on a

podcast you can meet a VC you can uh do your company accounting you can uh plan

your financial projections plan for your next board meeting a new person like

pitch a VC you can build your game you can look at the KPIs, you can try to craft your next fundra story. There’s

like more that I know how to do now and more levers I see I can pull and then it

just becomes overwhelming. And I think that was the reason why this topic is super interesting to me is because for a

while I was just obsessed with being the the perfect founder like on LinkedIn

like going to all the events like I was like every happy hour is invited to I went to and I became like Jenny who you

knew you who you knew you would see at every event and I was like very proud of it. I was like I’m at every event in

gaming. everyone knows me on everything like at every con giving talks and I was

like very proud of it but then I realized like how much of that is actually equated to like my company

product doing well and I realized like actually I’m not even pushing my company

forward. I’m just now pushing my branding forward and my founder persona forward and doing all the things I

thought I should be doing. But now I actually spend a lot more time being intentional. So instead of going to

every happy hour, every event, every podcast, I choose the ones that I feel like matter. It’s like talking to you

Harry, like people who I feel like can share the message, but not everywhere. Because if you share your message

everywhere, then people get fatigued. Like I don’t want to hear another talk that Jenny does. I’ve already seen her

everywhere. It’s dilution, right? like you want to be very intentional with what you’re putting

out. I’ve had this realization with my content recently and yeah, I use the analogy of a radio

station like you want to have a balance. You want to have banter with the host

who’s, you know, Jenny at 10:00 a.m. who makes her jokes and then there’s music and then every now and then you have an

advert like, “Hey, we’re fundraising.” Or, “Hey, meet me at the conference.” But if you just like

all banter with Jenny, people are like, “Wait a minute, what’s for games?” Or like, “Wait a minute.”

Yeah. Why am I doing all this content if I’m not asking my audience or something? So, right now, I’m in full advert mode for

the last month. And I just had that realization. It’s like, yeah, I don’t think I’ve given my audience what they

needed because in my head, I haven’t needed to because I don’t need more clients right now. But that isn’t Yeah,

it’s just me kind of adding on to this point. Like I’ve felt that recently where

technically I’m doing what I’m supposed to do and I’m advertising what I’m about to do but I am it’s out of balance.

That’s the word I’m looking for. It’s just not balanced. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, I was just

very unbalanced to like the external validations. I was like very external

validation seeking for probably the first like four years of running TOFA at

this company. It’s like fundraising is such an external game like you’re trying to get VCs to believe that you will take

their money and make it uh raise the next rounds like do more like build the bigger vision. So I just got really good

at just sharing my story like going to events seeming like that person doing it all while yeah every day I get home I

look at the 10 todo items and I’m like there’s not enough time to do this. I’m just gonna do I’m just gonna code this

fun feature because that gives me energy and I’m exhausted already so I can’t do these. Very relatable.

Yeah. So now I actually um like what I do now is I’m very intentional with my

calendar. Like my calendar is my todo list now. And if it’s not making it onto

a block onto my calendar, it’s probably not going to get done because I also schedule personal. Like I realize now as

like a founder, I’m like I neglect personal if it’s not on there. So like date night or like see family, even

laundry, do laundry is like on there and it just has to be because if you don’t make time for it, you’re not going to do

it. At least for me. And I also realized like morning night person matters. And I

am a morning person. So I actually put like all my like big kind of the decisions I need to make or things I’ve

been avoiding doing at the start of the day. So like 6:00 a.m. I’m doing my

workout. 7 a.m. I’m back. that seven am task is gonna be like board meeting

materials because I know if I don’t do that it’s just gonna keep getting rolled into the next day and then at night is

like all the stuff that brings me joy maybe like a fun feature even one-on- ones talking to my team is easier to do

later because I can be on for a meeting but if you tell me to like deep work focus it’s much harder at 4 pm versus 7

am so that has been my hack for like making sure I do the right things and

that I actually do them and like knowing my energy and when I have the most and like using that to my advantage in

scheduling. Yeah, very very relatable. I had a coach and he recommended me do exactly what you

said, do an energy audit to determine whether you’re a morning or an evening person. And when I did mine, my energy

kind of starts strong and then at lunchtime it dips a bit and then it gradually goes up and then it starts

going down again. And he said, “Okay, do calls give you energy or take energy?” And I was like,

“Okay, calls give me energy.” So, all right, put them all in the afternoon. So now my calls start at 1:00 p.m.

onwards and from 9 to 1:00 p.m. you have to do top goal, which is it’s just a block on

the calendar called Top Goal. Then I use Yeah. My issue is though,

I wake up and I’m like, “Oh, I’ve got to 1 p.m. Let me wait.” And that’s just a personal thing. I need

to chill. What I’ What helps now is because I have more people on the team.

Like we meet in person at 10:00 a.m. and then we start. For me, it’s maybe an

environment thing. Have you noticed this? Are you a remote company? Do you have an office or fully remote? Yeah.

Have you found that? like do you start on time every time or any secrets there?

Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely um yeah, timeliness and like keeping meetings compact and intentional matters a lot.

Some people have Zoom fatigue too and they don’t even realize it. Um and I yeah, intentionally I turn off

self view like on Zoom. I don’t look at myself. Even right now, I’ve taken my

self, like the camera, and I’ve thrown it off into the corner so I don’t see myself. And just like for me, it’s the

routine that matters the most is like I just need to make sure every day I’m like doing the same things. Like the

workout, logging on, morning standup, um, all hands, like they all have like

regular predictable cadence. And I love remote because I also have like a

walking treadmill right here and it like I walk on it every day and that helps

with like also it helps with like VCs pitching fundraising. I’m walking as I’m

talking to them. Yeah. It keeps the energy up I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And it also just like is part of our company’s DNA. It’s like

Oh yeah. Yep. Of course. So it’s just like the I use kind of whatever I can like in the remote

setting to my advantage. So yeah, being able to show up on a call, exercising, walking so the VCs know I I love this

stuff and p and pitching. Um that’s all been those are all some of the hacks I

have for for remote settings. And yeah, I actually don’t go to a co-working

space or anything. I’m just like in my apartment, but I make sure the views and the vibes are great. Like I’m looking at

the Bay Bridge right now and it makes me feel happy. So just making sure the like

I’ve got all my equipment, my like fun little gimmicky stuff like the treadmill and then the routines help the most.

Amazing. So I’ve got a few curiosity questions for you. Yeah. So when you now I guess back into this

phase where we’re working on the product now, right? Like we’ve raised the money, we’ve done it.

Yeah. So like now we just got to build. Um, when you went from raising mode to

building mode, is there anything you realized now that you’re in building mode, like, “Oh my god, we should have

been doing this way back when?” Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think um

building our first game, Run Legends, it was like a multiplayer synchronous battle game where you had to move to

fight monsters. So like sprinting would deal damage and walking slowly would

heal your team. So it’s like your speed of running would match to your actions

in the digital world. like that game was a very innovative game and that like

nothing like that exists existed before. And I also at the same time like spent

too much time like asking literally everyone their opinion on it and kind of

coalesing the average of my team, investors, adviserss, all their thoughts

into what I did. Like I basically stopped trusting my own intuition as a game developer because I thought like

this person gave me a million bucks like they should guide the game direction like I need to make them happy and I

just did you almost value their advice more than others because it came from that place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like really

wanting to do good by the people who put their money in me and making sure every decision I made was like run by them.

And like that I had to undo this year over the course of I’d say the past one to two years was like realizing I need

to trust that they trusted me with their money and I need to like kind of take

out all the fund raise in fundrais land. It is a lot about crafting the perfect story, adapting it to what people want,

what the market is at, like making sure you position your story and make it FOMO and get people excited. But building a

company and a game is half art and half business. And I just had to go back into

like uh like I almost had to go all the way back to my middle school days of

like what would Jenny at 12 do to make a game that actually is like true to me as

a game dev. So that’s why like my game now, like what you saw in the trailer

and the Undertale theme is the type of game I made as a kid. It’s like I made Undertale inspired games, bullet hell

games. I made games about Yeah. befriending monsters and they have like mental health issues that you help go

through in order to help resolve your own mental health. Like that is very much the game I made preVC days and I

just had to go back to that. Like I even went back to like some of my old communities like on TikTok I was like,

“Oh, there are people here that used to play my games. Let me like talk to them.” And just kind of reclaiming that

old identity before all the capitalism, before all the all of the like people

pleasing kind of went into full effect. And yeah, I just think, yeah, kind of back to your question, like I should

have like from the beginning just like believed more in myself and my like

creative vision not being tainted by like what I thought others wanted

because games are just such a unique business and the average of people’s

opinions is not going to make a great unique creative voice. So that was my biggest learning.

I’m thinking for the person at home who hears that and says, “Okay, but what do I do with the feedback?” Like,

do I how do I incorporate it? Do I make that spreadsheet but then just make it less kind of 100% the inspiration and

make it more like 5%. Or like do you still get player feedback? Is it just different feedback?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely different like filtering player feedback and investor feedback

for sure. Yeah, I would say like listening to players like 100%. Like I I

think that’s like talking to players I’d almost put over talking to investors.

Once you have the money, once you’re able to just build and the the feedback

from players, I think is like informing what you build but not guiding what you

build. Because if everything you build is like a player feature, it may not also be in line with the creative vision

and it may also not be what brings in the next 100,000 players if you only

cater to a very vocal minority. So I say everything kind of goes under the lens of like what do you think serves like

the original game? Like we have game design pillars and I have things that matter to me like as a creator. I really

want people to take away the fact that this game experience is like nothing like what they’ve ever played. like it’s

unique. Like that matters a lot to me. So like I think a lot about that when we build is like make sure it’s not just a

cookie cookie cutter version of what is already out there. And also I care a lot about mental physical health. So kind of

if somebody tells me like you should make this game not about walking, not about fitness, it kind of just goes in

one ear out the other. So like having those mission pillars as a filtering

process helps a lot because if you’re kind of going with everything you hear it just like too easy to get really

unfocused. Back to like the question of focus. But if you have things you’re looking for filters you’re looking

through then it’s it makes it very easy when you get a lot of feedback about like oh but I didn’t feel like walking

like okay then maybe something’s wrong. Like if nobody is walking with a game I made to make people healthy and fit,

there is something big wrong there. Beautiful. I wanna because I’ve read

this story online. I think it was on Medium. Like you orchestrated a surprise wedding for your parents for their 30th

anniversary. Yeah. Like awesome. Like can you quickly tell that story

because I have a question about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. I definitely

feel like kind of to your story, yeah, I struggled for a while. I’m like really

kind of pushing. It’s like founding a company just becomes the one thing that’s you sacrifice everything for. And

I really did that for a while. But I read this article called the tail end

that I think still like I think when I read that I start like prioritizing more

of like the family, the friends kind of the reason I did this wedding was partially because of that article

because it in it says that like by the time you hit 18 like this is for most people averaged out. Yeah. you’ve

already spent like 95% of the time, maybe even 98% of the time with your parents because if you had a kind of

typical childhood, you’re at home like 1 to 18. And in those 18 years, that’s like 95% of the time we’ve already

spent. So just seeing the fact that like if I were to spend time with my parents, it would only be like maybe a hundred

more times and then uh they may get too old, pass away. Like that just like hit

me. I think when I was um it was 2019, we had just won the Niantic contest and

I was I knew kind of the next phase of life would be very chaotic. Like we

never we may never have this chance again. Like my grandparents were getting old and I knew my parents had always

said like my mom and dad had a like court house wedding so they never got

married and my mom always said like all those women look so pretty in their dresses. and I’m getting so old like I

might not look pretty in one but I would love it kind of more offhand and I kind of picked up on that and I like founding

winning the contest like with my brother and my dad was like this bonding experience like no other because I was

like can’t believe I can share in the highs and lows of company with people who grew up with me. Um but yeah, so I

think it was partially like a thank you for all their support and they supported me doing games like full-time like even

to this point. So it’s like a I knew I’d never thank them enough in my entire life for what they had done to raise me.

So it’s like the one thing I can do is like do my mom’s wish of having that wedding. So I contacted her brother who

is in China. Um or actually first my mom asked me if I wanted to do a marathon in

China and I I was like you know I never did a marathon at that time 2019. So

then I was like, “Okay, if she wants me to go to China, this is the perfect time. Like, I’m going to orchestrate now

a a surprise wedding, but they won’t know. They think I’m going to China to do a marathon with them because they

asked, so they’re not going to know.” So that started a six-month process of like planning behind the scenes behind their

backs with her brother, her bigger brother, who is still in China. We like

got hooked up with a wedding planner who I like coordinated with. Uh, I asked all

the cousins, all the family if they’d be free. My brother was going to surprise fly from uh Irvine where he was doing

college to China and they didn’t know. So, we had to like get his girlfriend at the time to buy a plane ticket so my

parents wouldn’t see the credit card charge. And then like yeah, on the day of like we we did have to somehow trick

them into wearing a wedding gown, wedding suit. We told them that

we just told them it was a photo shoot, like a surprise photo shoot to like commemorate their wedding. And maybe

they at this point they were starting to get suspicious. Wait a minute. Not enough. Yeah. And then like I mean day of we

couldn’t hide it, but we did like have everyone kind of show up in waves. Like my brother came into the wedding hall

with like a panda mask or bear mask and he was just like being extra friendly.

They’re like, “That’s such a friendly waiter.” And then he took off his bear mask. They’re like, “Oh no, my brother’s

here.” And then at that point they’re fully suspicious. Um, but at that point the wedding was in full swing. We had

them walk down the aisle. Both grandparents were still alive. It’s not true anymore. So it’s actually like the

right timing. And like my mom got walked down the aisle like with her dad. And

then yeah, they like did their speech and it was like everyone was crying. I’m crying thinking about it almost.

Yeah. I’m tearing up. That’s beautiful. But it was just like seeing like how

many people can witness like their parents like declaring love for each other in front of their parents and I

was like I think I think about that as like as close to like giving back as I

can and like it wasn’t that much effort on my side to do anyway because compared to all the effort they put in. Um, but

now that article, that story I know has like I’ve had people write to me saying

they have done similar things for their parents or their parents al like a lot of immigrants from China like our family

like all their parents had like courthouse weddings. So like I’ve heard of at least like two or three friends

who since reading that um have done something for their parents. So it’s like it was just like one of those

things where if that time I had not decided to coordinate the surprise wedding one co happened right after we

couldn’t have gone to China um grandma passed away pretty soon after that like it was just the perfect time it was just

like sees the moment when it when it is there otherwise it might not be there and that was very true for that that

wedding. Yeah. Wow.

I was going to ask you. So, my mom wants to go to Italy.

I was going to say, do you think I should just do it now? I think I know the answer.

Yeah, you know my answer. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes things just happen for

Yeah. when the idea comes, it’s there for a reason and you don’t call it and

maybe the last time or that’s how I think of everything in life is like this is a gift if I don’t take it. If I’m

Yeah. The desire to be lazy or procrastinate like there’s always time

like I think I try to challenge that of like this could be my last opportunity. What if it was? Would I regret that?

Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s I mean it’s a beautiful story to kind of

close up here Jenny because I’ve been thinking with my thing every time I see this is maybe a bit meta but

like I see a podcast I have it all my podcasts are purple in my calendar. Yeah. And I see a podcast I booked like a

month or two ago and I’m feeling really tired. I’m like ah got a podcast this evening. I’m not

going to you know sit down and chill. But yeah, I’m going to do my podcast. It’s 9:00 p.m. here, for example.

Oh, wow. Then I have the podcast and I’m like, this is why this is great. This is amazing. But then like that moment when

you’re booking the thing, you feel like everything is so busy, but then you do the thing and you’re like, ah, this is

what life is about. And I feel like this is the same when it comes to like personal stuff. Like

when you’re in that moment of like, I know I should do something. I think just like take it, right? just do it because

like you say like these things don’t happen. So I actually interviewed my grandfather last year for the podcast.

It’s like an unlisted episode and it’s for a similar reason to you. I

think I read a LinkedIn post which was the equivalent of the Towerland thing and I just thought yeah

he’s got way too many stories. I need to document it. So I went to his house. We did a whole podcast and

yeah from that gathered around watched it together and the planning of that I

felt so frustrated because I was like I was so tired I had another podcast the day before I had content to do

and then I did it and then I was like I didn’t like my face because I was too thinking I was too angry and then all

this to say like when it came out I was like oh my god amazing like all these things in the moment you’re like ah I’m

so frustrated it’s like then it happens you look back, you’re like, “Thank God. Thank God I did that.” Um,

yeah. So, yeah, I think special Jenny, thank you so much. Like, I really

enjoyed this conversation. I want to leave people with how they could potentially find you and get in contact.

So, you know, do you want to point people to

the game? I see it’s on pre-registration. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um definitely happy to

talk to anyone kind of at similar points in their founder journeys or if you’re just curious about making

games. I um I would say LinkedIn or

email is the best. Like LinkedIn just Jenny Shu and Talofa you’ll find me and

then email is like Jenny talofagames.com. And yeah, the game Monster Walk is

currently in pre-registration pretty much everywhere, at least English speaking territories. And the game is

coming out, you know, pretty in a week from now pretty much. So when the podcast is out, the podcast is

probably out when the game is out. So go play it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to make

Yeah. Taking steps a little bit more fun, like it’s definitely the game for you. And either way, feedback, we’d love

to hear. And yeah, it just every every game I make is just another chance to

kind of tell the the journey that when I was 12. I I did some I did the dream. Like I I

made it. I ended up doing the thing I thought I couldn’t then, which is actually building games full-time. So

say more so than that. Like hopefully whenever this podcast airs, I’m still doing games even if people are listening

a year from now, two years from now. I hope I am. Hell yeah, Jenny. And I’m sure this is just the beginning. We can we can run

this back in a year’s time and see what’s happened. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll see.

Awesome, Jenny. Thank you so much. Thank you as well. All righty. If any If everyone’s enjoyed

this, subscribe. Crazy idea. All righty. Goodbye, everyone.