Why do you feel like the old publisher and developer model is kind of breaking down? They gotten so much power. You know, now

the publisher are the the mega giants and the deals has become much worse. The

requirement for becoming a publisher is low to none. I think giving half of your revenue away is a lot. It’s too much.

Today, I’m joined by a 23-year tech veteran with 22 of those years spent shaping the games industry. He

co-founded and ran Play Dead for almost a decade where the team created the multi-awward-winning titles Limbo and

Inside. We are talking about a downturn in the whole industry, but the games have been signed and the games that are signed are

the games that all the publisher can just see from the start. You can see a 10-second clip and I already can feel,

okay, this has something. We talk about why multiplayer innovation won’t come from AAA, how the publisher

developer model is breaking down, and what Dino’s learned going from game creator to multiple tech founder. My

most favorite games are single player games. Combining a lot of single player experiences and the emotion and the

control you can have in the single player experience with multiplayer connection. That’s a hope I have for the future. From someone who shaped iconic

indie games and is now helping studios build smarter, this episode’s guest, co-founder of Jump Ship and CEO of

Coherence, Dino Patty. Dino, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you for coming. So for everyone at home, 20 plus years in the games

industry, helped co-found play dead, helped launch Limbo and Inside, and now runs Coherence and Jump Ship, a new

multiplayer platform, and with Jump Ship being a indie studio. Correct. Correct. Yeah.

Oh, amazing. So, too much too much for one man, maybe. Yeah, I like to keep myself busy to be

honest. Lovely. We’ll get straight into it. So for people at home, I want to open with

the fact that we’re going to speak about a few things today. So we want to talk about multiplayer, yes, but I’d love to get into what Dena’s been talking about

how the old publisher and developer model is dying. So one of our most popular episodes is about publishing and

how it works. And a lot of people send me messages later saying, “Wow, did not know that.” And I feel like a lot of

people operate with different understandings of how the world works in games and they just don’t know what they

don’t know. And I feel like you’re one of the perfect people to start this with. So I want to just open with the first question like why do you feel like

the old publisher and developer model is kind of breaking down? But there’s there’s a history behind that because in

the in the olden days uh all developers you know they work for themselves and

they all had the same problems uh with publishing and then you know uh

publisher model came out so some people were specializing in doing that. So it was done a bit as a service to you know

the the developers. So I think that was you know there was it was it was created because of a business need or noble need

but what has happened is that they gotten so much power you know now the publisher are the the mega giants and

the the deals has become much worse the requirement for becoming a publisher is

low to none um what happened a few years back is what that everybody I almost

knew created a publisher um and there’s no requirement And I I laughed a lot of a lot of them and said, you know, hey,

you know, you’re not a publisher before you published anything. But, you know, they they say that now they’re publishers. Um, sometimes they put

money, sometime something, sometimes they don’t. Um, so in reality, like the deal has become too bad, they don’t do a

lot. Um, now where discovery has become a key challenge for most developers,

they don’t have a magic bullet that that, you know, cuts through discovery. Nobody has, right? and and and a lot of

developers think that you know a publisher will help them cut through but they have no what what can they do that

you can do a lot of times you know the the very personal marketing you can do as a developer uh is much better than

what a publisher can do wait a minute do you know cuz this is very interesting to me because I’ve had

owners of like marketing agencies on the podcast they don’t call themselves publishers but hearing you speak it

sounds like publishing’s main solution yes they give money sometimes But it’s solving discovery. But what you’re

saying is once they get in, maybe it’s not so good on the other side, like they’re not actually doing what a

marketing agency would do typically. Yeah. But they use a marketing agency. But you as a developer can also use a marketing agency. I’ I’ve used marketing

agencies both in in in play that and and jump ship and and coherence, right? But they don’t cost you half of your

revenue. They cost you maybe a retainer of $5,000 a month, which is a lot for

indie company. and not so much for a bigger company, but you know there’s different that you can also both get it cheaper and more expensive.

I’ve actually got a good price range now. So like 5K is probably like small to medium and like some people I know

who are killing it right now, they charge like 10 and sometimes 15k a month. And funny enough when I spoke to

him his main business is going direct to publishers. So, I don’t know what they’re effectively getting on the back

end after, but yeah, he they’re do and he actually said, this is interesting. He said

how a lot of the publishers he speaks to, at least in his words, had no idea what they were doing. No. So, like

interesting. Yeah. Because it’s it’s it’s it doesn’t require them much to say you’re a publisher. And what they do the

publisher is know they ask you the developer to deliver the materials. So, they are not to know

they they not ask you about your experience with a publisher. I think that would be good because you’ve worked with one before, right?

So, I have never released anything through a publisher. I always self-published.

Um, but I worked with loads of um developers uh both on the board and on the advisory

board uh where we had um publishers. So, that’s so how did that look? Could

you give people a concrete example of like maybe what they think is happening is not happening? You don’t have to name

names but like can we paint an example here in in in terms of but that was what I think I was trying to say that you know

you throughout the process you just have this middleman that is between you and

the format holder and the middleman between you and the marketing agencies that that at least what I feel. So what

I did in some some part of my job at play it and jump ship was to kind of be that middleman between you know the the

developers and um uh either format holder or um the um marketing agency but

you essentially pay this middle middleman that’s a publisher. What’s the role of a publisher? I’m so

confused now. Like why why do we even need one now? So I think we just need them for the money maybe. Exactly. probably for the money. Uh it’s

I still think it’s an expensive loan, but it’s also, you know, the people who are willing to risk to take a huge risk

uh on some money that, you know, the bank wouldn’t do or some other people. So, so I I would get them for the money,

but that they I think it’s a it’s a it’s a what’s it called? It’s a lie. It’s a

huge but it’s a huge lie you know that you you as a developer say hey they do QA

they do localization all of these services are super cheap you know it’s it’s not that expensive you know

companies do that they’re the middleman between all of these services um so if you need the money I understand

and I I mean I I also talk about our developers I I I advise that we know we’re considering devel publishers

because hey it’s your first game who wants to take a chance on you cannot go to the bank you So the bank doesn’t

understand this risk. They don’t want to give one or $2 million. So you can say for the money it’s

probably worth it and then all the other things they do is just an added bonus. But I I I I would always prefer when I

launch something to do it myself. Um of course with help from you know people

who do does QA, people who does or marketing. Sweet. So you’ve obviously done it

yourself. maybe remind people who maybe have not heard the story like when you’ve bootstrapped a company to an

exit, right? Yeah. Obviously big story to say in uh in the hour we have now, but I’m wondering if

you can go back in time and you have Dino there and maybe the listener is in a similar situation. They’re about to

bootstrap. They’re bootstrapping the company. What do you tell that man? Like is there anything you would do differently?

Uh that’s a good question. I mean since I started out a lot of things have

happened in the industry. Um and it was easier in some parts and harder in some

parts. When we tried to get money for the first company I co-ounded which was paid

like nobody under like no investor understood really game financing. There was nobody

out there. There was definitely no nobody out there. And then like this was around you know 2006 2007

and it was almost a bit embarrassing to look for money for a game. I mean there was um it’s really hard to explain like

how the gaming feel was. But I think it’s been it became easier and now it’s hard again. Um and the reason it’s hard

again is that the VC model haven’t proven to be that

successful in games. If you do a premium style company, like a premium game style

company or indie company, it’s really really hard to pitch to a VC that wants

you know a times 10 return because a lot of time you could you could probably do a really good um like

a business just you know making a game for cheap selling it. Um, but it it’s really really hard to find a VC that

that to make that type of model fit the VC model. And I think the VC numbers,

right? Oh, sorry to interrupt. I think it’s from my understanding they the multiples

they need and the deal sizes that they typically go for are usually a lot higher. And

most people that I know who are raising money, Yeah. like maybe one in 10 want 3 million

plus. Yeah. And it’s like will the VC get out of bed for that? I don’t know. Yeah. And imagine you’re also an indie

developer. You developed you know a game for a year or something and then you know the VC is only interested in when

are you selling the company, right? And that’s the last thing you think about as India and maybe you never want to sell

it. And I remember when I was in the early days you know that we had to kind of make that 10-year plan and you know

we even at one point made this stupid plan where we had released once a year. You know, we didn’t believe it, but we had to put in something to make it seem

like, you know, a lot of releases. And I think I think the VCs now have actually

caught wind to that that the premium games are a really really hard thing to do a VC model on.

I wonder if it’s more like the movie industry where it’s just you’re looking at projects and a game is a project at

least at the start. Unless you’re someone who’s going to release a sequel every year, that seems more

But then why do you need the VC? Because you already you made it. I’m confused. Like like if I’m sitting here listening

to this podcast and I’m making a game, bootstrap is the way. Like I I love bootstrap. And again, back to

publisher, you know, they’re doing project financing. They’re giving you a [ __ ] deal. They are trying to lock down

your second game if you become a success, right? Uh they do whatever they can. Um, h there’s not I don’t even know

if you have to ask me or what what’s a good publisher at the moment. I don’t even know who because I know a lot of nice people um that I’m friends with

that are publishers, but I still think the the deals is what I consider shitty.

I just I just I I think giving half of your revenue away is a lot. It’s too much.

Yeah. But is it more maybe the supply and demand thing? Like they if you’re a publisher and you have all this power,

why would you ask for less than 50%. If you got so much deal flow, like if I’m the

publisher and I’m a business, yeah, I don’t need to give more. So why should I give more? And then there’s only need a few

I’m not going to say suckers, but like a few people who just don’t know better take that deal. But I if you take that deal, I wouldn’t

I wouldn’t say you don’t know better. Maybe that’s the only option also. And I I also I also think if that’s your only

option and that will give you let’s say one to$2 million and that will enable you to create your game it will take you

to the next level just like give that will actually give you escape velocity.

Maybe your game will just do enough that the publisher earns money and you don’t but you having a release game out if

it’s medium a medium to high success will still take you to the next step. So

in I mean like from a learning perspective. Yeah. For the learning like next let’s

say you you do a game you get medium successful the money the the publisher always earns their money because they do

recoup right so they’re happy you maybe just get enough in to either shut down

the company or continue the low low burn rate and you have to get another publisher for the second one. The second

one, if the first one was a medium succession, you still have that to show to the next publisher. Yeah. Unless you’re locked down with your

current publisher. So, it it it will take you further in your journey. Um,

obviously, if you use 5 years per game or 10 years per game, you you don’t progress quick enough. It’s you don’t

use that escape velocity fast enough to get out of a orbit. Um, but that that is

a that is a way to go. But also something I’ve you know when I’ve advised companies we have talked about

because I think there is there’s no really good solution but if you want to look for a solution you have to consider

you know they’re not optimal solutions. All righty let’s role play. You know I’m

that man or that yeah I’m that man in this case I am a man. So I’ve got a game and I’ve got the publisher. like we

can’t from my I don’t want to make them the villain but we don’t rely on the publisher of course it’s our business right so how do we build momentum like

we’re starting from zero we have a game like how do we build that momentum whether it’s as a company and team or

from the marketing side what comes first cuz you have someone who’s done this successfully I’m very curious

so what’s to be like do you need money or do you have the publisher so you have some money to uh go to what step of the

company let’s do this in two stages is before the stage. I don’t have money. I want to

get money. What do I need to prove to get that money? Like what should I be doing right now? So, you should do the most killer

either vertical slice, but if not that, you know, a short movie showing your

game. Oh, my effort goes there. Yeah. You want to you want to have

something they could pref try but prefer sorry see but preferably try as fast as

possible and you want to make that killer and you want to have something in that that is not you know it it it’s

super super hard to be critical but you need to have to have some kind of oomph for you know you know whenever you show

your friends or family that video they all go like oh my god this is amazing.

Um it is really hard to be honest and it’s also hard for your friends to be honest when you see a game because a lot

of games are just you know there’s making a game at the moment and

a lot with Unity you know everybody can make a game there’s you need to kind of get above

that so I think that’s the first step if you can make that for for booster money for family and friends for your own

money um that’s definitely where I would go because when

Like when you look at the games they we are talking about a downturn in the whole industry but there are games being

signed and the games that are signed are the games that you know all the publisher can just see publisher can

just see from the start okay this this has something this has marketable value they can see a 10-second clip and I

already can feel okay this has something um all of them had that not like like all

of them have that marketability feeling even is

I don’t know all but I I I would say the ones you’ve seen. Yeah. Yeah. Go through I mean the catalog of

Anna Perna. I did that recently like because I needed to there was a part of

another exercise and all of them have some kind of sparkle where like hey

there’s something to this. Not all of the games uh speak to me uh as a person, but I can see some of them, you know,

within their niche has something if most. Can you spell that? I’d love to show

people. What were we talking about? Anna. Anna Perna. So, these are the games you were saying.

So, these all have that sparkle you mentioned. Yeah. I’m wondering like for the

developer listening to this like I I feel like the common theme here is like

different like these don’t these don’t look like like at least for me these don’t look

like copycats I don’t know what else to say and the person is also one of the publishers in the world that really does this great but they are super good at

fighting there that I mean

I don’t even know how to describe it but that that the game should know maybe the genre but they do something completely

different and you have like you just want to have the urge to go and try try that again now just on the covers they

look really nice but I mean I’ve played 10 of their games and they they are all

have something to them yeah I’ve watched let’s plays of at least five of these and I like you say I

know the games but I don’t necessarily know knew the publisher but yeah I see what you’re saying like even Stray I’ve seen as So cool. So,

how do we make sure I get that feedback? You know, cuz I feel like I’ve seen this where I speak to a developer and I feel

like they feel they’ve got something special, but they haven’t validated that, right?

No. And they may, but it’s weird because there’s also the success stories of people building games that they would

love to play. How do I go get good feedback? Like you mentioned sharing it with friends, but

I’m wondering like what do you do when you see a developer? Like do you make them get it tested by publishers or is

that too early? Like how do I validate with what I’m building? In general, I would not let it get

tested by the publishers. And while Anaperna has is really good or was

really good, they completely changed um the whole staff recently um just for the listen out there. So,

it’s not the same people that sign your new game that signed all of these games. Um,

I Yeah, people use so much times on their own game that they lose you lose partly

lose your own you get blind to what you’re developing for sure. Um, and especially when you

spend a long time on it. uh if you spent two years making it it I think the body

disables you from thinking this was not a good idea you cannot you there’s nothing in yourself that can say hey I

wasted two years yeah I mean if you if you go around with that feeling all the time you would be depressed so that cannot

so so but that is a possibility right um but yeah I I for me I I I have uh

friends I know that are honest um that I kind of uh sense and stuff too um to

play and get the honest feedback. Um but yeah it is it is a tough one

because I think you there is a lot of uh feedback loops out there that doesn’t necessarily help you and if you show

your game at a conference you know only people who see the visual arts and are attracted to visual art comes to you

don’t get like feedback from if anybody else on the other side maybe you also only want feedback from the people who

are attracted to like the genre or art style. Um, and then it’s also people like in in games um, so they already

from the get-go um, have a certain bias of your game. Um

I think just getting as many eyeballs as possible which aren’t like the final boss which is a publisher or something

and then guessing a spreadsheet or something like just collecting this all right and then just see

yeah connecting but then I think on the other side you know you also you you also the director and you should not

take any feedback a random person come no random person coming up to your stall at a conference knows what you want with

this game uh and everybody has an opinion I usually say everybody’s a game designer And it is like even you know

the cleaning lady of the company. Everybody’s a game designer. H so you you also want you know to have a vision

of what you’re doing. What you talk about before that know some people are just hitting it off. It’s it there’s

also some survivor bias right. You are only seeing and hearing from the people who made it. You you’re not you know

because they they get big you know they become the Minecraft or the vampire survivor, right? you don’t see the

hundreds of thousands of vampire survivor clones that don’t make it. Um,

which I also have a great good vision. There’s a new game come up that I actually downloaded and tried called

Mega Bunk. That is that is the the new uh Vampire Survivor in 3D. Um, because I

wanted to see what all the the talks was about. How did you find it? Sorry.

How did you find the game? Did you say you played it? I I So, how do I find it? No, as in sorry, I’ve done this a few

times. How do I find it in English means like did you enjoy it? Okay. Ah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I I played

what I played maybe two hours. I’m very busy at the moment, but I really want to find out what it’s all about. Um, I

found it super super nice. I mean, it is vampire survivor. just feels like, you know, if you like a vampire vampire

survivor style game and you played that a lot and you want something different

that is fully different, you know, and you like this type, this is the next game you want to play. I mean,

yeah, I mean, this is definitely something I would play. I I would spend too much time on I I completed Vampire

Survivors. You You’re working with Vampire Survivors, too, right? Yeah, correct. At Coherence, we’re making it worked. Um, which I think is

awesome. I mean, it’s an amazing game and playing it with your friends just makes it uh even more fun.

Let’s touch on that cuz I didn’t not expect that. Playing Vampire Survivors, I’ve probably got a few hundred hours on

that. And I remember seeing one of your posts ages ago saying, “Oh, we’re making it multiplayer.” And

I’m the worst person to track as a user, but if I play a game too much, I uninstall it cuz I cuz I get addicted.

So, I’ve not followed at all what’s happened on the multiplayer side. But like I would have not expected Vampire Survivors to go multiplayer.

It’s something we are going to be seeing more because that’s what you do right here. Yeah. But that’s what I hope. I mean

that’s that’s our plan. That’s uh our mission with this company. I I want I I

love playing games and I played loads of multiplayer games. I played load of single loads of single player games and

maybe some of my most favorite games are single player games and and many times I

cannot I can I I I thought a lot of about a game like Doom which is one of

my first s FPS experiences in life. Um I just remember I was playing that a lot

alone. I completed it a few times or whatever. And then um I played

multiplayer which was you know very chunky uh clunky in the old days. It was like we had to have a serial cable

between the computers and it was it was really like really really basic. But when you came in there was they had not

been any effort to make it you know it was to to make it was work for co-op.

It was literally just you and another player. I think there was no even cannot even collision but you were shooting together and you were picking up armor

together but just that experience sharing that experience with your friend I just found that so extremely

mind-boggling that you could suddenly share this experience of this horror

game which it is with your friend and then I thought about this game was not meant for multiplayer they just added it

because they could what other single player experiences could you just add multiplayer and then you know that

that’s that’s part of what is a lot of other things but that’s part of what we do with coherence. We just go in. It’s

super super easy to make um single player game multiplayer. Obviously, a lot of times you have to think a bit

about the the game play, but I I think my my base thought is that you just

because it’s so easy to get in, you just start putting two players in and then you see what happens. If it’s is it fun,

you know what needs to be tweaked? We don’t need to theorize. if if it took one year to make, you

know, you have to do a lot of plans and you have to think about is it even worth it and so on. But with Kerish, you just

put it in and then you kind of play it and you see. And with Vampire Survival, what we did was that we uh the team I I

heard from somebody that the team had interest in going multiplayer and then we connected with them and then for the second or third meeting with them. We

kind of just prototyped the game. We just did the game as it was, you know, just put two or three whatever players

in and then we decide to play it. Of course, you know, you were mega overpowered, but I think everybody at that call could see the potential of

this game and now they just spend a lot of time. Wait, you said two, three meetings. Yeah. Maybe people don’t understand how crazy

that is, right? Like how can you do that so quickly? Yeah. No, but I mean the way it current is made is just like a few insertion

points in your code that you know where you decide these things need to be worked. So it it is it

is I mean that that’s I think that’s our selling point that it’s so so easy to implement that you can as I said like do

it almost even before thinking about if it’s a good idea. Yeah I was going to say you could validate it before going crazy investing

into trying it. Do you get many of that? I’m just going to be very curious right now Dino. So if a company comes like we don’t know if

this is going to work but we want to try. Yeah. And then you try it’s like well I guess it doesn’t work. No worries. And we get more and more but I still

feel we’re in the phase where you know people like yeah it’s good to be true and now we like what so you don’t even try. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. And then what we do with other people is that we take that code and we put it in and then as I said with two or

three weeks we have the second uh second call and then we we played with them and we you know we see where we are with it.

You know is it something they want to continue. Um I I mean we are still not communicating communicating well enough

that this is this is really easy to do. Um so that’s kind of what we’re working on with marketing and so on. But I mean

it’s something that is spreading you know the the more games that are released. Um, and the more we talk about it.

Yeah. Hell yeah. Um, given that you’re seeing a bunch of multiplayer games, for anyone thinking of doing multiplayer or

maybe now considering it after listening to this, like what do you feel is the future of multiplayer games?

This is maybe more a hope than a thought. But let’s do it.

I Yeah, but I mean I I feel that a game like a journey if you know that.

Yeah. Yeah. the one we showed earlier like the one where there’s two people together like Journey was released also by Anna

Perna. It’s a Yeah, we had it on the screen earlier and they have this game where you

playing a single player game and and somewhere through the game you suddenly

um Yeah, exactly. Somewhere through the game you realize that you meet like

other characters and it’s kind of a 40 minutes into the game someone joins you, right? You didn’t even know it was

going to happen. Yeah, exactly. And you get a deep connectional relationship with a person you don’t know. And it’s

so weird because what are you actually meeting, right? You know, the the the character, you know, when you like

technically seeing a character moving around, you know, it’s just a position and a direction vector uh that you see.

There’s also a sound and so on, but it’s very very little data. But because this

data is real time created by another person, you you can immediately see it’s a real person. You can see it’s not AI.

You can see it’s it’s it’s, you know, the way they move is it’s it’s it’s weird and unpredictable. It’s so

humanlike. And when you realize that, you just get this deep connection and it’s a cool story. And I feel that

nobody has has done that since. A lot of games are, you know, either you matchmake and when the matchmaking is

done, you go in and you shoot or it’s a single player game where you just have a single player experience and you cannot

share it with anybody. And I have this this hope that more games does these hybrid games where you play single

player but there’s other people there that you can share with and it can be your friends and can be like there’s no

I feel there’s no reason why you select between one or the other if you have something that’s really I feel like

Runescape is a good candidate for this or they maybe even Runescape Dragon Wilds because Runescape you can enjoy

and play as an iron man which is basically a single player And if you were playing on a oneperson

server, you could be a really cool single player game. Loads of people played it like that for years. But then if you want to, you can then

team up with someone. But I wonder if they made it with that in mind, right? Like I don’t know if you’ve seen Runescape Dragon Wilds where it’s

basically like the 3D version a little bit. That could be one where you make it. It’s like Valheim. Yeah.

So imagine Valheim and then halfway through you see a guy, no name tag, and you’re like, “Oh, another mob, but then

you realize it’s a human being.” Yeah, that’s interesting. I would be curious to see someone else try that.

There there’s some games that trying it. There’s something like Sea of Thieves where you can go in. It’s not super fun

single play. It’s not a super fun game in total, but um you can go to single player, you can play with your co-op

friends, but then you know as you in the server and sitting around, but they randomly match make you with other

people. So you see other ships and it’s not that you know it’s a big MMO and everybody if they go to one spot they

all there. It’s more like you know they create life in the world where other people doing something. So there are some games that does it but it’s still

mostly big companies because the technology and doing it is really hard and that’s kind of what we want to solve

that you know you’re one man you want to make you don’t have don’t have resources or you are small team you don’t have

resources to make but I’m talking about like a hybrid multiplayer game or even a multiplayer game so you use something

like coherence it makes more becomes more affordable you have your crazy wild indie idea that is just way out there

but you combine it with you being able to meet other people, you know, share

the experience. Just it could be hops where you just come in and everybody’s there and then you continue your journey. Um I had this wild idea or I

hope also like HalfLife 3, you know, you join the resistance but then the resistance is other playing gamers

playing Halfife 3, right? That would be mind-blowing for for for that game again

if that ever comes out. So like I think combining a lot of single player experiences and the emotion and the

control you can have in the single player experience with with multiplayer connection. I I that that’s a that’s a

hope I have for the future. Yeah I think well is it happening cuz

you happen to be in a unique place you see these games coming in. Are you getting more interesting games? I I feel we get more and more games that

does that. I mean most people still have a hard time like thinking that because they either decide from the start hate

single player or they start they decide it’s multiplayer. Um but I think more and more games

coming out like that. Cool. So I want to get into some

tactical stuff here because you’ve had a very unique experience. So you’ve sold a studio and then bought it back.

Yeah. Not many people can say that. maybe I don’t know maybe less than a thousand probably less than 100 but I don’t know

exactly so things happen right the way I usually take these stories I

literally just ask you like is there anything you do differently is there anything that if someone gets into your

situation what do you wish that they knew so I don’t think anyone’s listening to you planning to sell and buy their

studio back but there’s some things that happened that maybe you would have done differently so I’d love to dig into that so what happened there

but I can always tell it from my own personal uh story. I mean I I never created anything with the goal of

selling it. Um I think you know the times it happened it it just came about and there

was reasons for for for that when when it happened. Um I don’t like selling a

company I will say that people who are trying trying to do that or aiming to do

that it it is not it is not

It’s glorified a lot obviously. Really? Really? I You know why I’m very

surprised? I feel like I’ve met so many people who’ve told me the only business in games is building and selling a

studio. Okay. But but I I can agree to that, but it depends on what your goal is in life.

I mean, you personally get a lot of money out, but I find money really

boring. [Laughter] Now, now Yeah. But so you know, yeah.

Now what exactly? Um I I when I sold my shares in in Playet, I got around um $8

million out and I I felt that I would any day trade that in to get back and

have that be with those people and have that job and and be with the company I created. I

think really So when did you make that realization? Was that while you were selling? Is that the day after or?

Yeah, but yeah, I mean a couple of weeks after I mean but I mean really that quick you were like oh [ __ ]

I what have I done? Yeah. No, so so the reason I I did it that point was like there was a huge fallout with my partner the partner I’m

still not still falling out with but I’ve been you know you lose all sense of purpose. I spent 10 years

building something up and know I was also building an identity. I was also

creating I mean I learned everything there. I feel like I learned a lot and I came from never started a company before

to start one to get funding to manage people to hiring people to creating

products to doing a lot of things. So I feel like you know I learned everything and while I was doing it I felt that I

would I was you know this was it. I mean this is my company just grow it. We make bigger and bigger

things. You know all the games we we did know had a huge impact and I thought that was it. And then immediately after

like you know I sold it again. I didn’t sell it. It was it was for not

forcefully sold but I mean something needed to happen. One of us had to leave so I left. It was such a meaning meaningless things

thing for me for a long time and it took me maybe years to kind of get into

um you know having a feeling of now I have found a new sense of purpose. Um

and then with with jump ship um it filled a lot. I I I built a company in

UK and when I built when I started it I thought it was very exotic to have a company in UK you know and I go travel

to UK I have a company I even thought about buying an apartment there but after a while you know like I think I

felt it was um chore to travel you know going to the UK two or three times a

month it was a lot of traveling I mean I lived in a suitcase it was not feeling so nice and I I started staying more

home in Denmark And at that point I also lost a bit I lost a bit connection with the team

because all the team was in one place. It was it was not fully remote. Um and I

was kind of just calling it in. And I feel that like I was limiting the team more than I was helping it. So I kind of

because you weren’t there dayto day. Yeah. You know we have a meeting you know agreeing a lot of things. The next day you have another meeting and then

they all said hey we had this meeting we decided on all these things. Afterwards we met in the cantina and we found out

and we talked about this was not a good idea anyways and it was like I felt too many times and then sometimes they also wait and stop for me and I felt it was

slow to be so I for me that was I love

the people we had and I love the company and I was really happy to work with Chris but I like as we were kind of

releasing it I thought that I would much rather secure

find a home for the company and the people and kind of secure like having an

owner that could kind of you know fund the the next project uh to to kind of um

so that’s why we that’s why we sold it. But then of course I learned that just because you get sold and you have a

owner that doesn’t mean you’re safe. And actually we were less safe than if we were

why. Yeah. Yeah. Because what happened was that they they came back to me and say hey we cannot fund the next project.

So wait a minute you sold the entire company or part of the company? The entire company.

And why did they come back to you or did they come back to the team and say, “Hey, it’s over.” Yeah, I mean, I was still there on the

like, so I sold the company. I was still working there um as like I don’t know

what it was called, but I had like, you know, um it’s like the part after you sell where

you make sure the ship is running, a little bit of operation, and then the goal is to But I didn’t have a plan also for leaving fully. So, I was still like

there on a on a weekly basis kind of. Um so they came back and said hey we cannot fund the next thing and you know one of

the part of the contract and the reason we sold was that they had to fund the next thing. So we had a huge problem and

then we kind of came up with the idea that I could buy the whole thing back.

Um cuz that happened recently. It was like February of this year right? Uh no I can’t remember. I think it was

no 22. I saw an announcement in February this year anyway. Okay. On your LinkedIn you announced something

in February this year. Am I hallucinating? I think it was in 200 was it this year?

I’m actually going to check cuz I swear I saw something.

In February 2025, Dino acquired a job. Oh, that was recently. Oh man.

Oh my god. Have you had like two years lifespan in the last eight months? Dino, I have had a

You know, I felt so guilty for mis researching this episode, Dino. There’s a freaking article on my birthday,

February 12th. Like you bought reacquired the studio. I got so nervous. I got hot and heavy.

Yeah. I I I’m thinking about what am I thinking? What is uh That’s crazy. So, you thought this was

last year? No. So, I mean, we started the discussion, you know, last year with you.

Yeah. And I think actually, yeah, we signed over Christmas and then

it got announced that point. So, I think that’s that’s my excuse. All good. All good. Yeah. It’s been recent. But I also had a really crazy summer. I

had a really really crazy working summer. So I know that’s uh the Yeah. In the Twilight Zone stuff,

stuff got lost. Oh, very cool. Yeah. So So now we’re fired. I’m I’m The

problem was that they had to fire everybody there. Um and I also could I could not afford to fund, you know, the

people running there uh myself. Um, so I have an idea what I’m going to do with

it and I have started executing it and it’s um, I had a bit crazy summer so some of it has been a bit of a hard hold

but uh, there’s some really exciting plans for us coming up. Cool. Do you know I’m now going to take

advantage of you but not in that way. I’m feel like I feel like I want to

learn very selfishly some skills that you have that I don’t have yet. So

you’ve built teams bigger than mine and for everyone listening they might also want to build a team someday and you’ve

done it more than once. So I struggle how to phrase this question

differently from how do you build a team because I feel like the way you’ve built a team I’m sure there are things you’ve

learned along the way that you would be like ah I’m going to definitely do that next time or I’m definitely not going to do that next time. So, I would start

with this question like from all the teams you’ve built, what is the one thing you wouldn’t do again?

I never say never. I I would really like to vet my co-founder better or

co-founders better. I have two from a values perspective.

Yeah. From a from a values perspective and a sing perspective. And it is super hard. It’s like everything else, right? It’s it’s like I mean sorry for using

this analogy and I use it all the time and a lot of my team members always laugh at me but it’s it’s like a relationship. You Oh yeah you meet

somebody you move together in a house and then [ __ ] happens and how do you how do you

evaluate what [ __ ] will happen when you move in the house before you move in the house and it’s it’s it’s super hard and that’s I don’t I don’t think there’s any

solution but I think it’s I have a solution for the marriage version. Yeah, my solution is do a trip and that your

seven days together and just make sure I don’t know plans go wrong. I say make

sure things inevitably go wrong. So at least with my girlfriend, I’ve

did an event together in Barcelona. We went there for a week and my version of [ __ ] with that went down. I

accidentally, not thinking, booked an Airbnb and it was five guys and me and her and I didn’t tell her this and I was

like, “Oh, yeah, that’s gonna be fine.” Then I realized, “Yeah, that’s probably not the smart idea.” But it worked out. Took it in stride and

No, I I’m actually I I think it’s a good one. I will learn from you. Uh I will not from now.

Can you do that in business? Maybe like have a test. I’m doing that now with my writers now. I’m sorry I’m getting

excited here, but like with my writers because it’s such a skill-based role. How do I interview for writing? Like I I

know you’ve written so much, but I don’t know if you can write the way we want. So, the way we’re doing it is like paid writing task, paid writing week, paid

writing month, and then we go full-time. And it’s just very structured and like you don’t quit your job until we do the

full thing. It’s up to you. And I don’t know, I just really don’t like the idea of let’s interview and then great, we’re

getting married. And then there’s like a six-month notice period and if the divorce happens, we’re all screwed. Like I’d rather not do that, please. But with

interviews, I I agree with you. You know, you sit there and you you speak with now I say, you know, a liar, but

you know, it’s like the first date, right? You speak with a person for the first time, right? Of course, you’re going to get the best version.

They have the best version. They have the the most beautiful clothes. They have like, you know, prepare all the lines. You know, you ask them what’s

what’s your biggest flaw? And they say, “Hey, you know, my biggest flaw is I work too much.” You know, it’s it’s just like you get this. Um, so I agree with

agree with that. But I think it’s especially with the partners because there’s something with the partners where you really have to go deep in bed

with them. You um like you know you you either you know

share the company you know and then share register like there it’s just it’s a deep relationship quickly but I’m as I

said like I learned from you I think I will not have a new partner without going on a

trip with them. Yeah. Like I’m actually about to do this surprisingly. So, my younger brother’s

in the business, but now my older brother’s joining the business and he’s already joined for a few weeks and

we’re I’m still procrastinating writing the agreement cuz the vision is we both make this our forever company and he

comes in and he’s going to really scale the event side and he’s older than me, he’s got more skin in the game, he’s

investing and he wants this to be his forever company. And as I was writing what basically worst case scenario,

what’s going to happen? M and then he gets really emotional. I’m just like great. And I spoke to a lawyer about it. He’s like, “Yeah, don’t do that. Do

this.” I was like, “Wow, just I don’t expect nothing to go wrong.” But then I

try to do the doomsday planning and then it gets scary and then I just don’t want to do it. And now obviously I need to do

it. But like you’ve been through doomsday is what I want to get out and I’m wondering like what should I be

planning for that maybe I don’t think about. Yeah, I think it’s hard with family. Again, I never tried it with family. Um

and I don’t know how that would work. Um, pros and cons. Yeah. You get ultimate trust.

Yeah. And ultimate emotion. Yeah. I I have a I have a friend that does like the estate company with his

brother. And I I am really envying the like the

kind of some of the relationship and the level of trust they can have each other and they can, you know, they can really be angry with each other, but they kind

of no matter what find a common ground. Um, so I Yeah. Like it’s interesting. My company

is called fu.com at least the website. So, everyone in the company now that’s

full-time will eventually have the surname Foku cuz it’s my younger brother, my older brother, my older

brother’s fiance who is engaged and then my girlfriend I hope to join the business next year and one day she will

also be a fu and that’ll be very funny to see that experiment if that works. So, yeah, build the family business

slowly slowly. Yeah, I I personally have I mean I as I said like I personally

tried that my first company I I I co-ounded I thought it was a forever company and I since I don’t know really

appreciate not attaching myself to anything called forever and I don’t know if it’s a good or bad advice to be

honest I just think it’s again I don’t start the companies with the intent of selling them but I also

don’t want to put all my identity into one single company and and it has to

work for me to be successful. I can be successful in being in between

and you know for myself and then I can facilitate other companies and do different things with different people

but again it’s very a big personal thing. It is also is very stressful because having several companies is

extremely stressful. I don’t think a lot of people would like to to be in my shoes for a lot of time. And I mean I I

I really I sleep really bad and I’ve done that for the last 15 years.

So why would how would you design your life? Would you make it one company? No, I don’t know. I mean I I said like I

I I would not give people an advice for something I’m not doing myself. So I I don’t and I think I always you know we

people are always we are hardwired in the way that the grass is always greener makes so far

sense because you know your own pros and cons when when you look at others you can only see the pros uh you never see

the cons and that’s that’s how it is. So I I I I I

think it’s more simple with one company. I think it’s also there’s also some people that just should just be employed

because that’s you know the least stressful thing and I think some people are not meant to do their own business

is very stressful. Um but I think it’s different personalities you know I agree with you completely. I’ve

interviewed a writer recently. She was quintessential solopreneur, had her own

business, freelancer, and she applied to the job and I was surprised and we had the track because I knew her and she

said, “Yeah, I just she was like benefits clocking in, clocking out.” She

was like listing all this stuff. It’s like I can’t imagine anything better. I’m like, “Yeah, that sounds pretty good right now as well to me.” Like when when

you put it like that, like that’s it doesn’t hurt having that structure for sure. It’s just whether you’re working

in a place that gives you the room to grow. I think like you mentioned this earlier in the call, you stopped

learning and that’s when you got I guess itchy to jump. And I feel like if I can if we can maybe

take this to the the listener now like what happens when you get bored or get

listening like what happens then? I feel like we need to plan for that before you actually start the business even though

it’s annoying and I’m not following my own advice now cuz I’m procrastinating recording a podcast instead of writing

my profit sharing agreement. So, but I feel like it’s so important and it’s so important.

Yeah. I just think that was starting a company I never been bored. I mean I when I I was 20 I moved from a rural

part of Denmark to uh Copenhagen and I was yeah I was 20 and I was just

done with Gimnium which is a like education step here in Denmark and I I wanted to study more and I said to

myself I worked one year in Copenhagen. Um then I got back and then I was a two years and 3 years and then I said to

myself okay I mean I this is still fun but I will as soon as soon as I stop

learning because that’s what I love being curious and learn uh then I’ll go back and study and then

you know I became 28 30 and you know and like 20 around 25 26 that’s when I I

co-ounded and played it. Um, and at that point I just felt like

it was all new. It was all challenges. It was all uh there’s a new new day every day. Like it was such a big like

what’s it called? Catalog of things to learn. I I at one point I got a bit I got a bit sad that I never I think you

know I I went into tech. I wanted to go back to tech education and I love tech. I love programming as an I am an

engineer by heart but I’m I was I was a bit sad I didn’t kind of take the formal like you know leadership uh you know

business school uh stuff not because you know I I learned all I need to learn I think over the years and I learned it by

doing it when you say formal business leadership do you mean like an MBA for example or something I think all of the things I needed to do

I I had to learn so I’ve learned the specifics but I never got the theory and sometimes I feel I go ways around to

learn a thing and then I realized this thing has meaning we live in a different we live in a different world now do you

know like I’ve spent probably way too much like at least 25k maybe 30k now and

yeah big chunk of the revenue on just learning from people who are doing what I want to do I just like hey your

business is bigger than mine can I pay for your time you have this course here like have you done anything like that when it comes to business

not paid for but I mean I I see podcast and business YouTubes all the

time and you know follow what’s his name uh Alex Alexi and so on you know

the people who have done so I have an opinion on this so I paid

6K for this bad boy okay so if you bought 200 of his books he sends you like extra books

if you bought 200 like you said yeah so he released a book um for

so he released a book called Money Models I don’t have But basically green version of this.

So the page turn sound effect on this podcast is this book cuz this is why my

business exists. I just basically followed this book and the money models was the basically how to build money. But the book is

free, right? But I don’t know why I was in Italy and I paid for the 200 books

6K. I was like would I rather have two Ethereum or the book? So I was like I would rather have the book. So, I made

the investment. And I just want to say this, like to your point, nothing in here I couldn’t probably find somewhere

online. But it’s I guess different when I’ve paid for it and I have it in my hands.

And I had this on the table and my brother read some um Janna read some and

I found that very useful cuz like they read it like, “Okay, great. We can do this.” And I feel like it’s different when it comes in a I bought this to

learn. I don’t know how else to say it. Definitely great advice, but it’s I think the packaging is very important

where if you consume something with intent, whether it’s from a coach or you pay for some advice, I don’t know, like

you just take action. That’s true. Makes you less friction. But it’s really helped me. That’s the only reason I’ve

been able to like run payroll right now cuz I learned something and then I then went and did it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s also like one of like

the things you learn to write some budget. Don’t learn business school. So yeah. No, I mean I I love to hear a lot

of that. I mean I when I cannot sleep at night I hear it. When I work out I hear it. Uh when I

eat by myself I I also hear it. So like but yeah I still feel like you know when

I’m executing something it’s still uh sometimes I feel I need models. I mean

I’m I’m slowly learning and I I love that part but it’s yeah but maybe right maybe I mean I I al

also would never go back to a formal you know education right now because there would be 80 the opportunity cost is so much

yeah but it’s also like 70% I don’t need and then you know 30% I need I would rather now hey I need to do this you

know I have a problem with leadership I have a problem with this then I go and specifically search stuff that help me

over like the thinking about some of these things um and then but then as I said Sometimes I find out I’ve been

struggling with something and then I when I learn how to define it, there’s a term for it and when I started looking for that term, other people had the same

problem and I’m like, [ __ ] this is I could maybe just have started, you know, if I knew that term, you know, from from education that got input at

when I was 20. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean if I can give some

unsolicited two cents here like alakart find what you need or if you don’t have

a business coach someone who’s done what you’ve done to like 10x they are surprisingly easy to find like the

amount of people willing to give me time even unpaid who are a lot more successful than me is crazy and you’re

already a lot more successful than me so I can’t imagine the type of people you can speak to who’ve already done the things you want to do like they do

exist. It’s funny to you say it because I I I have this maybe limiting mindset

that when you first done it and you know you’re millionaire or something why

would you spend time like very few people I feel unless maybe

I’m wrong with it want to spend time kind of learning others again they don’t do this they don’t do it for the money

because they have the money why do they do it what is it that you um yeah

so you think people who have gone past you stopped learning just to understand. No, I think they they stopped spending

time learning others. The people who go back you know and suddenly get a job in education was

because they were maybe I mean there was they had some experience they can I learn from them but they they didn’t

leave orbit with success. That’s the trick. Don’t go to education. Just go to people who already run

businesses and pay for an hour of their time. Yeah. That’s what I’m that’s what I’m talking about right here. So, if their only job

is to teach, Yeah. what if their only job was build a business, but they spend 5 or 10% being

a mentor, what have you. Those are the ones that I’m referring to, and they exist. Yeah. I mean, I would love to know who

you who you’re speaking to. Yeah. We’ll chat to I have a few and some of them I I I

consider friends um that I I think they have a super unique perspective of some

things I don’t know much about. Um, I mean again basically how money works. I

learned a lot uh like the last few years both because I invest and in a lot of

things but I mean I still there’s still a lot of things I I I love to I love to kind of learn in that.

Yeah. Oh awesome. I want to end with

is there anything I should have asked you that I haven’t asked you do you know because there’s so much we could uncover

but there is obviously the unfortunate time limit. cannot come up with anything on the spot

in terms of the I guess next steps like what’s next for yourself? Is it doubling

down on coherence? So over the summer I’ve been working extremely hard on a deal with coherence and there’s uh soon

coming uh news out on that. I cannot talk about it yet. Um but it’s a it’s a

what’s it called? I I feel good news. Yeah, good news. Yeah, good news coming out. Um, so that’s

that’s next. Yeah, coherence. I mean, I I feel we at a pivotal point where we’re

getting our first releases, something we waited on for waited for for like so long. And that I think is going to help

us with marketing. Hell yeah. And then I’m also looking at a few other opportunities at the moment. I mean, I I

always have like two, three projects going on at the same time and I Yeah,

I’ve had to remove a project recently because I get way too excited as well. I I It’s just It’s like a guilty pleasure.

It’s like, yeah, we can do that. And Elon Musk did a tweet recently and it’s just a picture of a sign that says,

“We don’t do this because it’s easy.” And then in small print, we do this because we think it’s easy.

I’m very much like that. I mean I fine one thing I am really into learning at the moment and in general is

you know one of our big idols is um Richard Branson

um I don’t I don’t know so much about his details I just know that he started so many businesses and I think you know

right now I’m doing a lot uh with the businesses I start I’m the main driver and I think to start a lot of businesses

you have to not create businesses you have to create the entity that creates businesses. So you have to

have those people that you want to create the virgin virgin. I’m I’m very similar in the sense like

someone I had one coach he had a marketing agency and he sold it and for

a year he had to exit himself from the business and document everything and in that process he learned a lot of

like what he could delegate that he should have done a lot earlier. Yeah. and he was my coach for a big chunk of the year. Still is.

And he said like there are founder worthy things and founder worthy unworthy things.

Yeah. And the thing that are founder worthy are so small. He said it’s like three things like the direction of the

company, the vision and hiring and fundraising. Everything else kind of doesn’t need to

be the founder. So if you just get really good at those three things, well after a while then unless you’re really

doing all the hiring interviews like you can build the team then the only thing left is direction and vision and then all right I’ve got more time. Let me do

that again. Let me do that again. And right now I’m for example the head of content. I’m doing also all the BD. I’m

going to write the notes after this podcast. There’s a lot of stuff which eventually I can just become that vision person and then do the highest leverage

things at least ideally. Yeah. Yeah. But doing that and finding the right people and setting up the right structures for that I think is

very interesting. Yeah, it’s going to be a good plan. Lovely. Uh Dino, how can people get in

touch? What’s the best way with me? I mean, write me on X or I

don’t know. I I have too many people contacting me at the moment. If someone wanted to get involved,

you’re the first person to say that. That’s good. No, it’s crazy. LinkedIn, I’ll not

answer you, but I’ll read read everything. That’s right. That’s uh great. So, if you want to work with coherence, go through the website.

Oh, yeah. So, I have lots of people that want to talk with you at Coherence. Uh me personally, write me on LinkedIn. Um

I Yeah, I I’m overloaded on all channels at the moment. Um and I have at the

moment trying to find out how I I get a better process for that. But yeah, for get go to website. We have a crazy

intelligent team there to make your game multiple. Fantastic. Dino, I really enjoyed this

chat. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Hell yeah. Sweet. Goodbye, everyone.