15 plus years in the industry, built titles like Shadow Gun Legends, Payday 3, and also now part of the design

leadership team at Shark Mob. And you’ve also written a book, Game Economy Design. They tend to think of it as 90% economy

and 10% game design, but the reality is it’s more the opposite. It’s like 90% game design and 10% economy.

I always have a conscious thought in my mind like how long is this going to take me really to like get to the good part.

People want everything, but then you give them everything, they’re not going to like it. I mean, that’s what we get when we test game economy. be akin to

giving the same prize to somebody that did a marathon that somebody that did a 10k. You’re not going to feel good as a marathon. You’re like, “Well, I did all

this and this is what I’m getting. How do I even break into game economy design if I don’t have the ability to test it?”

If you’re building a gun, you can press play and you can see if it feels good. When you’re building a game economy, you need all the stuff in. You need all the

bits moving. So, how do you test it? You know, you have to. Charlie, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming. So for everyone at home, 15 plus years in the industry,

you’ve built titles like Shadow Gun Legends, Payday 3, and also now part of the design leadership team at Shark Mob,

which is an extraction shooter, Exoborn. So of course, I’d love to get into the details of that, but we’re mostly going

to be talking about game economy design today. And you’ve also written a book, Game Economy Design. So you’ve written

the book on game economy design, and you’ve been on the front lines of design teams across Europe and has also started

your own studio as well. So very, very nice conversation. I’m looking into today. So, just for everyone at home,

we’re going to be getting into building kind of more profitable player friendly game economies, the real job of an

economy designer cuz that’s actually quite not clear to a lot of people and also how to grow in games when it comes

to leadership without kind of losing the love for your craft. So, let’s get straight into it. So, what I wanted to

start with is kind of we met at the Shark Mob office actually, right? So, I

came down there. You’re working on an extraction shooter which I found really cool. So my first question is when I met

you I thought it was just game design like ah he does game design and then like preparing for the podcast and

chatting to you earlier said actually well it’s game economy design like isn’t that just one feature and you told me

that’s not so think it would be a good way to start the podcast like what’s the difference of kind of game economy design between monetization design or

just general game design. Yeah I can I can go into some of the details. So basically um you can think

of game economy design as like a subdivision within game design. So as in like the overall like picture for game

designers you’ve got guys who cover um AI um there’s also narrative designers

the system designers people work on various things. So game economy design is you can think of it as like a type of

system designer um but basically our consideration is uh the long-term player

engagement. So you’re building things that keep players retained and keep players coming back. So um you tend to

be building systems that focus on resources that you’re getting distribution of resources, progression

systems and how they tie together. I personally think that progression systems like that long-term engagement,

how we track that is um quite closely related to game economy design even though it could be seen as a separate

system. Um and then you know how we distribute goods and it’s you so it’s really the long-term goal. We can we

think of those as metagame systems that the things that surround the main gameplay. Um so game economy design it’s

like you you sort of there’s this two schools of thought. You can almost build it something that you you feel rather

than experience and it just keeps you coming and that’s like addiction loop which you might you know hear in kind of casual talk about it. Um but also it’s

uh it’s it’s like a system as well. So you are still trying to build fun into

the game and and treat it like a system. We we also have a as a role like one thing is it tends to be a little bit

more connecting the dots of other disciplines. So some other areas of game design might build a specific thing you

know for example AIs or they might build a skill tree or some something along those lines but game economy design has

that but it’s adjacent to those but it also ties all the pieces together. Um so we’re really thinking of the loop of of

engagement. So it’s a subdivision of game design but um it’s also a complex

discipline itself and it is it’s a it’s also challenging as well. It’s like a little bit more mathematically um

oriented. Um it’s you know a bit of a blend of different um different sort of hard skills that you need to to do the

job. So that’s that’s hopefully a decent overview of of of my thought about it. Um there’s also like I should say

there’s there’s monetization design as well. Um that can be that can be different at different companies. Um,

it’s more of like a commercially facing job. Personally, like I’ve I’ve been a I’m a commercially facing economy designer. So, I’ve worked with

monetization design, monetization management. I’ve worked in a publishing team before. Um, so that was slightly

like a slightly different role. Um, so, so those people in monetization design

there there is a lot of overlap and you really want to build monetization into the game economy as well depending on

the business model that you’re working on. for example, free-to-play mobile. Um, but there there’s like it deviates

in in different ways, you know, with the sort of day-to-day work and maybe what you’re trying to achieve with it and

your your stakeholders and various other people. So, yeah, I’m thinking of the games I’m playing now and I always have a conscious

thought in my mind is like how long is this going to take me really to like get to the good part, I guess. And I’ve

noticed when I play test a game at a conference, Yeah. like they have play

tests of the game and I don’t know sometimes I play a game and I just get the feeling this would just take years

like it would just take too long to get into the good stuff like the endgame stuff. Um, from my understanding, that’s a part of economy design, right? Like

how fast you get to a certain level of feeling in the game. Like I’m wondering

for people who aren’t doing game economy every day but are working on games, like what is a common misconception they have

about game economy design? Um, that’s actually it’s it’s quite a

good question. Um, I honestly I do think that um it’s

it’s like they tend to think of it as let’s say 90% economy and 10% game

design. Um, but the reality is it’s more of the opposite. It’s it’s like 90% game

design and 10% economy. Um, I have to say that kind of a bit a bit like wary of saying that because um it you know

there is a distinction between like other types of design like I just said. Um but there is there’s this idea that

you you know you don’t need to be an economist as such. I’m not you know I don’t have a qualification in economy. I I actually did a degree in math and it

is more like a mathematical style of design. Um but that’s definitely one of

the the misconceptions. You are still a game designer at heart. Um you’re you’re playing just sorry you’re you’re

building games with just a slightly different mindset um with a different set of problems to solve. Um, but like

like all game design, it’s it’s it’s honestly more problem solving than creative, dare I say it. But it’s uh

it’s certainly the game economy design is very very problem solving oriented. You’ve got the puzzle pieces you need and you you put it into something

coherent as the architect for the project. So uh the misconception

definitely is that it’s it’s more line with economy. That’s just the word we use and it it makes sense. You think of economy, but no, I mean it’s it’s really

more of a game design role. So you’re very much in line with the design team. Um yeah, that’s that’s that’s what I was

thinking. I mean interested in in also the experiences that that people have when they just play a short amount of

time at a conference, you know, or or for example or an event compared to actually buying and playing the game uh

you know for a long period of time yourself when you’ve actually paid for it and and how your engagement changes and how you feel. So that’s also an

interesting topic that uh maybe can go into further detail. Yeah, we could. Like the games I play now only tend to

be rogue lights because I don’t want the feeling of this is going to take way too

long to get good or to buy the good stuff. And I’d rather my meta game be

the collection side of things and achievements. And then sometimes they give you new things. Like the biggest

one I’m playing right now is Batra. Every now and then you can unlock a new card, but actually took me a week. Now,

the only thing I’m going after is collecting the gold stickers. So, right now, there’s no metag game that affects

the game, but I really enjoy it. And obviously, there’s an economy within that rogike, but other than that, I

don’t quote unquote think about the economy. But if you look at most like mobile games or a lot of other games,

like um the only last real game I played was um Red Dead Redemption 2. And with

that one, I just felt like I had a full-time job and I was like, I’ll put in a couple hours. I was like, I just

can’t be bothered. It’s just gonna take too long. It’s just it was just one of those like back in the day when I was playing GTA 5 all day as a kid, I could

see myself doing it. And then like I guess now as an adult, I’m just thinking more, yeah, I’d rather just only play

Rogue Lights or something which is more small because I just don’t want to have to think about like the long-term grind.

Yeah. I mean to to be honest you’re you’re kind of highlighting something that’s sort of prevalent in the industry

almost I I think that um you know as as we become more grown up we have busier

lives and then you know the amount of time that you can realistically put into things in theory you know diminishes I

mean the stereotype is the person that was playing a lot when they were a teenager and then they get older they have kids and they have like 15 minutes

a week to play a quest. Do you think that’s a real stereotype? Do you think that’s truth? I think I’m

I’m not sure. I mean, this is a I mean I think so. I think that also

there’s there’s an interesting um you know timeline I suppose of how how

games have changed and what what’s happened with with the type of games we built. You know there was this idea

maybe 15 years ago or roughly that that games were going to you know they needed to

cater to more casual markets. They needed to be built for that market. Um, for example, um, there was this there’s

an article about it called the postcore gamer, and it was that stereotype of a player that’s that’s grown up and they

now no longer have the time. 100% that stereotype. So, I am that person, but I don’t know if everyone’s

that person. I I think I’ve thought about it. It’s been interesting because I when we used

to have our own studio, um, we were thinking about this in terms of what, you know, trying to break into different markets and stuff and it was it was

fascinating to think. I honestly dare I say, I considered myself to be a little bit like that. um you you know I mean

it’s like adult life is busy right um but I think that what happened was you

know midcore mobile games took over um and they sort of filled in that gap for the the

casual person that that doesn’t have maybe the energy to do it and then games actually got more and more complex if

you think about it your elder rings and things so the actual complexity of games was you know was just growing and

growing growing so that was like it was sort of fascinating almost that the game sort of that’s actually very interesting because

all the games I’m playing are on mobile and that’s kind of a prerequisite like I wouldn’t really bother playing it on

Steam unless it’s Jackbox which is literally just a party game right um this is just again this is just me um so

I would only play it with friends on my laptop or on mobile so I guess why even

consider me in your game economy design like if you’re I’m thinking about Exoborn now it’s an extraction shooter

you’re not thinking about me, the mobile player, right? Really? So, like, should you even cater to them in the economy?

Um, I mean, it I think it depends on what your target audience is for for the game. I mean, like I can’t say anything

really about the project we’re working on, but all games regardless, you know, we have to identify a target audience

and target games to those that audience. You don’t just, you know, of course we want everybody to play, want everybody to buy it, of course we do, but that’s

not the reality. So, you need to to cater to the target audience. we you know game all companies will have

predictions of of how many copies games will sell based on their genre and you know who they’re tapping into. So I mean

we we stick with our guns I think in this sense and we’re always going to build games for that audience who are the hardcore players who do stick with

it. Coming to back what we said before, you know, games got more complex. There’s still the audience for that. Maybe just we don’t see it. We don’t

relate to ourselves in in a certain way, but um we we’re always wanting to build

something that caters to the players that are naturally attracted to that genre. But then of course it depends on

the the vision of the game. Some games want to position themselves a little bit more towards the casual side. So they want to attract new players. Um and you

know this this deviates like with when you’re building a game with the business and how the industry changes and various other things. we um you know publishers

will have way more data on it than than he personally but we we always target something and then adapt based on the

market. That’s what we actually have to do. Um but I think regardless we’ll we’ll build a game with an audience in

mind and to be honest you you’re you’re still going to have the same patterns of engagement. You’re still trying to hook people in different ways. So even if

there is different business models and you know levels of hardcore uh casual

games etc. you’re still going to have design patterns in the design that that you use to to cook people because we’re

all humans at the end of the day. We’ll all still get get into some kind of hook some loop and then we’ll we’ll progress

further. Um it’s interesting that you say about, you know, not feeling like you want to progress and stuff. Uh I’m

curious about that. If it’s something you feel from a game that you’ve not paid for, then it’s entirely likely that

you might feel like that. If you’ve invested in it, as in you spent your 70 bucks to buy the game, then the economy

isn’t going to just give you everything straight away. Um, it wouldn’t make sense. Yeah. Because that could also be a negative, right? Cuz that means like,

oh, I just only got four hours of progression. Yeah. It’s so interesting because like

you would people want everything, but then you give them everything, they’re not going to like it. I mean, that’s what we get when we test game economy.

The sliding scale maybe, right? like you’re never going to please anyone of course, but how do I find the sweet spot

of like I think Dune’s an interesting one because it seems like everyone’s happy. And from I’ve not seen or watched

streamers talk about it, but from what I’ve seen, streamers are enjoying it, players are enjoying it, and someone

said, “Oh, takes 50 hours to get to the endame.” And I’m like, for someone who I

spent most of my time playing an MMO called Runescape. End game for that is probably like 5 to 10,000 hours. But

it’s so funny that back then I’m like, “Yeah, that makes sense.” But now that I hear like, “Ah, to get to the end game,

we take 50 hours on Dune.” I’m like, “I’m never playing Dune.” It’s like completely different switch. Even though I’m the same human.

Uh, so it’s like you mean the target is still far away for you basically. Even if it’s Yeah. Even though like back in the day

I’m like, “Oh yeah, 50 hours. We a couple weeks. Yeah, happy days.” Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you I

mean, you used to what is it games where like it used to be eight hours for a single player advent action adventure and then

now it’s longer. It’s more like 25 hours. Um, you know, the some of my That might be a good distinction,

Charlie. Like you’ve worked on both single player and multiplayer games. Correct. Actually, honestly, not so much

experience with with single player as such. Okay. Economy design much more of a multiplayer thing. it

I mean to it can seem like that to all intents and purposes. I mean, you’ve

you’ve often got um aspects of game economy that that are related to that,

like, you know, building up skills and progression and unlocking content and you’re you’re going in and maybe if you,

for example, have a multiplayer game that’s just let’s take a team deathmatch, you know, you’re going in playing. You’ve got a loop you can build

around that. You’ve got resources you can buy, you can invest in things. Of course, you’ve got all this in single player games. So, I think it’s no, I

mean, I think there’s there’s there’s economy everywhere, but you can be a lot more contrived. um you know and a lot

more controlled with with single player stuff um in in game design in general. So it definitely there there’s aspects

of it, but I think you’re talking more then about maybe progression systems and focus on that and the content, you know,

the building expensive endame content that’s only single player. With with PvP, it’s in a very roundabout way might

lend itself to to some more parts of design we could call game economy. Yeah, I think there’s

Is it maybe because there’s also more problems to solve? For sure. Like it warrants a game economy

designer. Yeah, I mean I would say on average, yeah, from from my experience what I’ve seen um it it would I mean it’s also

just the size of the game. So not every game needs an economy as such, but then um I I did work actually on like an MMO

FPS. Um and yet they had a single player campaign but we had you know dungeons

and we had um other modes and sort of PvP modes and everything all tying together you know the economy sort of is

brought to light through that. So um you know yeah I would say it’s like a series of different problems. Um and then you

know obviously all your mobile games and other things. So it’s it exists. Um, I

don’t I don’t think it’s necessarily just for single player um or or multiplayer, but I’ve definitely found

more like more of the sort of the work experience uh through multiplayer games.

Sweet. Um wondering if you allow me this. So, I want to ask you a few

quickfire questions for anyone who’s either considering to go into game economy or should just know what game

economy does because it’s related to their role. So, have a few questions here. So, like you said there’s a lot of

problems to solve in game economy. Could you maybe mention like one big problem

like story that you solved that was kind of one of the hardest ones just to kind of paint a story of like the types of

things you’re doing behind the scenes to like fix cuz when I hear you say fix game economy problems I can’t stop

imagining oh it’s a spreadsheet and this number needs to change and this number needs to change but I don’t actually know what you mean by like all these

problems. Like could you give us one story? Um yeah, there’s there’s one that was like a really good learning

experience from a few years ago. Uh this feels like a job interview question. Um but that’s

Sorry, I just I just feel like I really want to know like what does it actually look like? That that’s okay because they’re

actually really good really good design problems to solve. Um so I had for example in the past worked on a game

where um it was a like a first-person shooter um mobile first-person shooter

and the initial design of it the system had basically taken the way the

progression works in Clash Royale if you’re familiar with Clash Royale and it had put it just like pasted it on top of

it. So, you were leveling up weapons in a in a a certain way where you’re you’re getting random drops for those weapons,

cards which basically upgrade weapons. Um, and that functionally worked. You

know, it looked okay. You’re you’re getting proof and it it seems to work in the end. Uh, it just didn’t feel good.

Like, it didn’t work. It play testers didn’t like it. And basically, the

problem is is is sort of systemic. you can’t just bl like blankly apply that um

method to that game because if you think about it when you’re playing Clash Royale you’re getting upgrades are

random. Um and I’m talking about Clash Royale of old but I know it’s changed a bit in in the recent years but when we

were playing I was playing it like seven or years ago um it was like and you’ve you had um random upgrades but every

card you have is a playing piece so you can legitimately upgrade them and you’re getting something meaningful for them. They they all have different

functionality. You can’t just apply that to a catalog of weapons. For example, if you’ve got weapons, you’re you’re making

minor tweaks to, you know, the fall-off damage or the the armor penetration or whatever whatever it might be. Um, so

you’re playing playing and you’re getting these tiny little upgrades to a catalog of weapons. In the end, it

doesn’t feel good because you might not be interested in them. You want a specific play styles. You want to target different players. You might prefer shotguns. You do use different weapons

for different cases. So, it just didn’t feel good. And on paper, it’s like you you graph it out and you’re essentially

normalizing it. So somebody at the very end of the game who’s played, you know, 50 odd hours or 100 hours, they’re

getting tiny little increments like like 01% of an increase in damage and it’s because you have to stretch it out. Um

and somebody at the starts getting the same and it’s and it just doesn’t feel good. It would be akin to, you know, giving the same prize to somebody that

did a marathon that the somebody did a 10 a 10k. You know, you’re not going to feel good as a marathon. you’re like, well, I, you

know, I I did all this and this is what I’m getting. And yet, it sort of very insidiously crept into the design that

that we were that’s that’s what you’re building. And then you’re sort of wondering why the retention’s all falling off. So, that’s a bit more

extreme example, but it’s those type of problems that you’re you’re solving. So, something, you know, we see sometimes

playing games, you see a bunch of things ticking up, bars filling, this unlocks this, and this unlocks this, and you got

this new item after playing this. You got daily challenges and all that. But there is a lot of almost like graphs

with um arrows linking them to to how it all flows together and how everything

connects and that’s what designers the game economy designer is thinking of specifically is how how it all maps

together. Um but that was a really good problem to solve and it’s a good sort of systemic problem you know why is this not working and then you dig deep and

you find out the solution. So hopefully like it was a really good learning for me like at the time and I think it’s uh

hopefully it sheds a bit of light on on the type of things we do as well. Yeah, I want to dig into it a little bit if

you allow me. The problem seems quite common. Like this doesn’t feel good. But

then you explain why it didn’t feel good. It’s because like I put in effort and I got either a result I literally

don’t care about. Like if I only like to be a shotgun player and 80% of my weapons by random is, you know, semi

automatic or whatever, then it’s literally inconsequential. It’s actually a negative that I got an upgrade there because I’m like, ah, I wish I got it

here. And then the other one you said were I see this a lot on mobile games is

just the the percentages. It’s like ah 5% more damage. It’s like I I don’t give a [ __ ] I just don’t care because it’s

not changing the decisions I’m making in the game. So it just literally feels like a stock portfolio slowly going up

over time. But then sometimes the big example for me I don’t want to slate the game like survivor.io IO that game for

me number go up in terms of damage but then the enemy’s power scale at the same amount so I’m literally just paying

playing the same game it doesn’t affect me like I don’t care um so I’m just curious like in that specific problem

like how do you go about solving that seems very hard so um what we did was it was I think at

the time it was a bit of a band-aid solution um generally for for those type of games you you want to give some kind

of agency and choice to the player more so um instead of winning random rewards,

you you swap it to winning some kind of resource that you can then spend on upgrading specific types of weapons. So,

um you can see, you know, for example, you see in Call of Duty, um or at least the ones from a few several years ago,

uh you’re unlock you’re leveling up weapons, you’re getting mods, and then you’re um applying different mods, and

you’ve you’ve got like a a bunch of sort of what we call horizontal progression where you’re getting more and more strategic elements that are unlocking.

Sure, you want to control it, right? You don’t want to get everything at the start, so you still have some degree of of things unlocking. Um but over time

you’re you’re building up um potential to play with different styles. Um you

know sort of giving the player more Yeah. Like

so they haven’t got all the choice at the start. They’re unlocking more choice as they go which I think is a big difference. That’s that’s sort of that’s

definitely like horizontal progression is that they we talk about vertical and horizontal progression in games. And horizontal is you’re unlocking more

choice, more capacity, more options to to, you know, bit to have a bigger strategic

uh arsenal I suppose of of what you can do, how you can play, how you can customize equipment, weapons or characters, whatever it may be. Um, and

then you’ve also got uh vertical progression where you’re just boosting power, you know, you’re just adding

power. Um so and that’s in this case what we we’ve done wrong is we’re just adding power onto things in a certain way. Sure it has some horizontal aspects

but um yeah in this case you know we wanted to sort of take inspiration from

what other shooters do and and I think that was that was one method to solve it. So we we gave resources that you

could then spend um and then yeah then beyond that you know you can be creative there’s so many different ways we can we

can build that into the game. I mean, we’re always looking for ways to improve obviously and do, you know, fun things.

I think as a side note, um, you know, for for example, I mean, some innovations with Marvel Snap. Um, it’s a

bit of a a bit of a separate thing. Played a lot of Marvel Snap actually. I quit Marvel Snap because it got too good. That’s I’m the worst retention.

I’m the worst retention person to track because if you see when I drop off, it’s usually when I’ve peaked my experience

because I’m like, “Oh [ __ ] I’m having too much fun. I need to quit before I get too good.” So, if anyone’s tracking

that, they like, “No, the game was good. That’s why I dropped her.” But yeah, Marvel Snap, I put in too many hours. I

was I was actually one of the few games where I was like, “Okay, I have to buy the monthly pack. The value was too

good.” Like, I was hooked. It’s It’s really good. Like, it’s very clean. Like, I I as a math person, I

really love the system. Um I I put a study in it in my book. I kind of did a a bit of a breakdown of it um to, you

know, see what make it What did you find? Very curious. Is there anything that another person can take away that isn’t on a card game for

example? I mean the first of all the the system for upgrading your rarity of cards um

you know whether it’s just a cosmetic upgrade for rarity was a really cool innovation at the time. Um it’s

generally um what’s the economy is very very clean is the best way to describe

it. It’s very systematic. So you can imagine somebody with a very clean series of numbers in spreadsheet where

you upgrade this by plus 2 4 6 8 something that looks very sort of pleasing to to a number person. Um so

you got a good feel for to upgrade. You’ve also got this nice synergy between um the the boosters which you

use very specific on you know specifically on on a unique card and then the soft currency which I think

it’s called credits which you’re you’re getting um to spend in tandem with that.

And then of course you know you can buy cards but you it’s a very inefficient way of spending. So you’re going to run out of credits and then they feed the

you know they they make you do daily missions to to get more and then you can spend real money to get more daily missions. So, they’re limiting the

supply of that currency, but sort of making you spend. Um, I would be interested to know how the monetization went. I hadn’t like read any articles

about it. Um, hadn’t really followed it recently. I played it a while ago, but um, the monetization I thought could

have been a little bit stronger. Um, in general, more spend depth, you mean? Uh, potentially. I mean, it just it felt

like the store did feel like it was a lot of bundles and things just thrown at you with with with cards. I didn’t like

I thought they could have been um I think this I mean terms of spend depth probably okay. Um I just thought that uh

cuz it was capped. It was one of the things that they ran in their ads like you’re not allowed to buy every card in the game on day one. You are limited by

your play time which I thought was an interesting thing to come out with. Yeah. Interesting. I mean I uh to be

honest I probably need to look at again. Um, I thought that the the buying variants was was a cool thing because,

you know, you you buy a variant for real money and then you basically have another card in your pool which uses the

same boosters that you you can for another card you have. So, you’re essentially widening the pool of cards

you have and therefore when you play those upgrade as well as the existing ones. So, in theory, you’re buying you

or when you spend you get more progression a bit faster. So, it’s a very roundabout way of spending money

and then you get to progress just that little bit more without almost without realizing it. So, it was uh it was quite

a nice way of of you know paying monetization into the game. That’s a a

bit of a more in-depth thing. Um but it’s it’s certainly you know Yeah, I

find it very interesting. I just like I brought it up on Claude here and he’s telling me um like things about the

monetization yada yada. Um that’s interesting. The current state of Snaps

monization forces players to do what they don’t want to do. Too much work for too little return and they amplify FOMO

too much. That’s just one random source they put. But it was interesting tie in here. Um this probably more marketing,

but like the revenue soared by 300% when a Deadpool pack was released that

coincided with the Deadpool movie. It’s like, okay, interesting. Yeah, it’s probably more marketing for sure. Like we, by the way, we found

that with monetization, what sells really well is when you tie in content into, you know, films that have been

released, you know, you’re selling like, I don’t know, it could be colors and if people can customize and make their favorite film

characters from cuz you’re selling feelings, right? Cuz yeah, like that’s a big thing for me. It’s like I

have an in-game name um on Runescape called Hoods, which is just a hood. And

any game I play, if there’s a way to have a hood or be like the grim reaper, I will throw money at it just because I

like that feeling. So if anyone loves Deadpool, then any game they play, Marvel Rivals or, you know, Marvel Snap,

they will probably be like, “Yeah, I’m just going to spend more time and attention on that.” Yeah, definitely. Um I think like we

were talking, you know, about monetization and and how that sort of differs. I think like I’ve always found cosmetic monetization really

interesting. Um if you’re you’re just selling, does that play into economy design? Is that something you think about? I Yeah, I mean we do to some extent. Um

I mean there would be a separate job in a sense. I think also if you’re if you’re playing just in-game stuff and

functional content things that you’re you’re you’re playing and then you know if you’re monetizing that we can think of that separate if but there’s always

there’s always a loose tie in um with the cosmetic stuff because it’s it how it relates to what you get for free. you

know, if you’re you’re obviously going to play and you’re going to get some stuff that that is free. And then also

if you’re unlocking cosmetics, for example, is is a good one because what you you generally find with cosmetics is

it’s subjective, right? You can’t really put a value on something. Sure, if something’s got a lot of works gone into it and it’s got um fire effects and

everything, it’s going to look very premium, but you you can’t really pick and choose what people like. It’s more

of a classical sales problem like what do people want, you know, and then sell it to them. So, if if you’re have a

complex progression system and you’ve got cosmetic rewards, many games do it, but it’s not always the most optimal way, right? Because you’re going to play

and you’re going to unlock this this mask that I don’t really want to wear because I’ve just customized my hair to look the way I want it. So, you know,

you’re going to like it’s not the best reward to give. It might be better to come up with some other solution like

give a currency that you for free, you know, or a special currency that you can then buy that cosmetic with, for example. Um but yeah, we we do think

about it like how it ties in and also what um like if somebody’s spending this

amount of money to get this this thing and if somebody can grind it to get the same thing or something of similar

level, you know, it tells you a lot about how people value time, you know, what they’re going to spend their time on to get and um or rather they just buy

around. But in general, like buying stuff that that looks nice or it relates to some of their favorite characters in

some other media that that is just um dependent on the person and some people

will will buy it. Like I I mean I’ve started buying some battle passes. I play the finals quite a lot which I

really enjoy and I buy the battle pass for that and um I’m a bit hooked on it. Like I I sort of put some time I get

some progress and I want to buy it. So it’s more I think for me I just want to spend um it’s sort of got me. I think

the daily missions got me. So, I got progress and then I I feel like I’m, you know, I feel like almost FOMO, I guess,

you know. So, I’m like I’m What are What What are they doing? Well, maybe it would be good to highlight. Um, I mean, that’s uh the store like

when it first came out and it’s still pretty good. The store is really welldesigned. Like, it’s a really beautiful in-game store. It’s like the

product ownership, whoever’s managing that did a really, really good job. you know, the it’s it’s very sort of this is

more for like people who are devs, but if you’re building content, you know, you’ve got to store it and you got to grant entitlements to players so they

own this item and it’s handled in quite a neat way where it’s all in the game and then the store is a subset of that.

So, it’s a it’s a nice arrangement. Um, but in just in general, I think it’s it’s really well built. I think just of

late, the daily missions that give you progress are really nice and easy, and I I got into that real compulsion loop of

playing 45 minutes a night, for example. um and I get some progress and I I feel

good about it and then it speeds up towards the end. Um well, so towards the end of a season, it it sort of gives you

a bit more. So, it was generally um a really uh like I think it’s really well done. And also, this is not so much game

economy, but one thing that I’m I really like is is the when there’s a creative,

you know, vision that that gives developers a lot of leeway um to to build things like the whole setting in a

virtual reality thing. It just allows you to justify so many things that you sort of accept that as this is the way

it is. Um you can do what you want. You can turn off fall damage. You can do this and it’s all part of a game show.

So, you know, there’s like infinite ammo on the web. It’s just it’s allows you to sort of cut gives them a lot more

creativity, right? I think so. I think so. There’s other example other games that that taken similar approaches, but in that sense,

it’s a really it’s almost like a smart decision to make it like that because it allows you to, you know, be more

creative and and have less sort of constraints. You know, if you’re I mean an example, you know, there’s other

examples where you’re like you might have, I don’t know, currency in a game that wouldn’t exist because it doesn’t fit the world. You have to justify it,

for example. But with this, you can just sort of put what you want and and and it ties in and it ties in in creative ways

as well. Before I move on, because I’d love to dig into like you started a studio, I’d love to know a bit more about that

journey. Before I kind of go in to that part, I wanted to ask in-game currency

like the one that can be made for free and like premium currency.

Cheeky question like what do most game economy designers get wrong between these two and the balance? they are like

they should be tied together. Uh they they are prop tied together. I mean I don’t I don’t know if game economy

designers are necess necessarily getting it wrong like from what I’ve seen. I mean I can’t see from the end result but

from a development standpoint um you really want to map everything to time.

Um and then time is a base we all share 24 hours a day kind of in the way of their time. So when you’re playing a

game you’re getting a certain amount of resources by this amount of time. Um, and then your free currency, your soft

currency is going to going to be generated by playing a game, you know, finishing missions, killing monsters, whatever. And your your premium currency

might be or it might just be a separate thing that you buy. Um, but even so, it’s still going to be tied in some way

together. We will come up with some way of measuring what somebody does. Like we

often find metrics to measure. This is not metrics in the analytic sense, but like ways we can track how things are

like if this ask you about that. Like that’s an interesting I don’t think about okay so when I make buying

decisions I always know back of my mind that I’m taking into account the time it takes to get it normally right like if I

want to buy a premium pass how long does it take to get it by doing it the freeto

play way and then I will make the decision oh it’s worth it to do the freeto play way then I’ll do that but

from the sound of it this is just like a formula is that done continuously like calculating All right, we’re going to

give for x amount of play time around this resources. Is this like a problem that is solved quite quickly in a

company? Is it one that is constantly evolving? Very curious. Uh it’s definitely a problem that we

solve a lot. It it’s always evolving. I mean, you have to just test it and see. Um this is the idea that we we often

spend the time in the math and in spreadsheets and calculating this reality is you want to test it and see how it feels for different players in

different games. And just depending on the game, there’s this X factor that you don’t know, right? But there’s always um

there’s always calculations done. You know, we’ve got a theory where we we we do some math and we give this much by

this time and depending on how it ties to other content in the game and what’s given, is it is it working? Is it hooking players? And then you test it

and usually you you model it. Math, spreadsheets, whatever, maybe you’ll have some software tool. Um there’s

other tools you can use. Maybe you’re working with a programmer. There’s maybe more creative or more techsavvy ways of

doing it. um depends on the company or or just the job changes everywhere. Um but then you obviously put it out to to

test with players and internally you you also have play test and then you’re going to have larger play tests and you

also get data from actual players as well when you launch. So you’ve got these three angles of attack that you’re

you’re taking to to you know judge how things are working. But one of the things to stress is like I say it’s

formulaic. It’s still a creative discipline, right? You still don’t know. You we typically say you put it out to players and they do something that

completely blows your mind, right? And then you have no you didn’t expect it. So it’s always a process that we’re adapting. Um but there’s there’s usually

some type of strategy going into it for sure with with that when you’re choosing the time, you know, the time it takes to

get this amount of thing and what you can buy with it and what you can’t buy with it and how much more you need to do to get this which allows you to do this

which is going to be fun. That that type of thing. You mentioned a few times in our conversation like does it feel good?

And I feel like I see a lot of games they sometimes give a survey. It’s like

hey did you enjoy your play today? It’s like a yes or no. But like if you’re the person receiving that data, how do you

know why something feels good or not? Right? How do you know it’s because of the resources? Like you said you do play

tests and you do it internally. Are you specifically asking them, hey, how did the resources feel? like is it still a

bit more subjective or is there a more specific way that you can test how good the economy feels?

Um there’s I mean I think we’ve got this too like you’re going to have qualitative quantitive feedback. Um so

sometimes it’s it is just asking people you’re getting surveys and you will do that in play tests like how things are feeling. You’ll get feedback from

community and you’ll get feedback from influencers and people if you’re if you’re going to events and you’re you’re testing the game you know there. Um,

we’re also just looking at, you know, we’ll look at players kind of what you feel internally. I mean, it’s a bit of a point of contention how things feel

because as we know, you know, a half-built game is not the same as an endgame and how things feel can change

and you never really know and you know, you’ve got your own opinions if you’re 10 other people think something different. Does your feel doesn’t really

matter. Um, but yeah, I mean, we we’d look at we’d try and look at data uh as

well as as we’re building it to see what seems sensible. Um, I mean like you know

I mean I think a sensible starting point is that you know if you’re if you think the average person right they’re going

to play a couple hours a night they’re going to play more at the weekend. Um then you know if you’re kind of on the

right track if you’re getting this much in four hours you’ve got two evenings a

night most people might have you know a Tuesday and a Wednesday they probably not you know they’re not doing other

things so you can kind of be sure they’re going to get some kind of progress. So I think there is just that common sense aspect of it when you’re

you’re planning things out. And then and and the thing is and also to stress is that that the people that hammer

something for 15 hours straight that’s an edge case right that’s not doesn’t represent the normal person. So yeah may

maybe a game economy if it can handle that cool. If it kind of breaks and it is not providing anything then it’s I

mean you really want I mean you want to cater to people like that right? You always do but um it doesn’t represent the norm. So, you know, you you have to

you have to design within reason. You can’t just make everything stretched out to the point where it alienates the

majority of people. Yeah, for sure. You uh have moved around, Charlie. You

have moved around. I have. Yes. So, what did moving around teach you maybe about design? Like, did you

bring anything from different studios to where you are now? Oh, definitely. Um, I mean, working like

I don’t know if it’s worth giving my story like the bit of background. I mean I I I worked in Yeah. Tell us the story. Like you’ve

been around and obviously now you’re in the UK again, right? Or is it in Sweden? No, you’re in Sweden.

In Sweden. I met you in Sweden. Yes, you did. I’m sorry. I forgot that

there’s two there was two offices, but yeah, Sweden. So, yeah, it would be good to just a quick refresher for everyone

like the story and then what happened. Yeah. So I mean uh I was like years ago

I was working um studying in Scotland and then I had um like I went to do a

some time in the QA department. I worked in Rockstar North briefly on the expansions to GTA 4. So that was back in

the day when I was I was doing testing functionality testing and then I’d done another course. I went back and studied

again actually after that. And then from that course we started a studio with uh three other friends and it became more

successful I think than we thought. Um we were mainly doing work for hire. It was a time when you could set you could

charge 69 cents for a mobile app. It was like that that point you know 15 69 cents.

Yeah. Back you know when you could charge premium app people would pay for mobile apps like in Oh sorry I thought you meant as a work

for hire. So you meant to like two consumers on the app store and then get a decent amount of money for it. Yeah. Yeah. Basically you could sell

apps and it was that that was you know days gone by right. Um so it was at that

point we’re doing a lot of web apps. We’re doing serious games. So um we had our own company. I mean that was it was

basically starting from four us guys working on the kitchen table trying to build games doing that that whole thing.

You know you’re eating noodles you’re you have no money etc. and you we’re working away at that and then um we

started to just we went to some events we got a bit of work for hire just small things and then just built it up and

we’d get a project and then we get a bit of a reputation and we’d be connected to another client and we’d start to take our work. So we just built up this work

for higher business and we did our own games as well. Um so it was it was a cool I mean it was a it was a really

cool learning experience you know we did some long days and it’s like a emotional roller coaster of you know things are

things are working and not um really cool very like highly recommend to everybody. I mean you know it was um did

relatively well um you know obviously wish it could have done a bit better when when we finished with with that

company um we kind of wound it down. It was a bit of a tangled web of things where we merged it with another business

and I had left at that point and I had never lived abroad. I’d always wanted to live abroad. Um, and I decided to move

and I moved to the Czech Republic and I started working there. Um, worked for a few years. Then I moved to Spain and I

worked in Spain in Barcelona which is awesome by the way. I like living in Spain. Early 30s is a experience that uh

like you know I’d recommend everybody try. Um, I was considering it Charlie. I was really considering it. I was going to

like move there for three months, six months of the year. Um, yeah, Barcelona

is a very nice place. I conquer. Yes, it’s uh, yeah, I have a really really good memories of that. Um, and

then I came to Sweden, which is like the polar opposite. Um, but I I had a really good time in Sweden as well. I mean, it’s it’s been a really cool place for

career. So, I moved Yeah, I moved to Stockholm and I worked I’ve worked there and then now I’m actually in Malmo. So,

I moved down. Working in different studios is really interesting. There’s a it’s a different work culture everywhere. Um the how the people are

different, the sort of expectations. I mean there’s obviously the labor laws and everything and how that affects how people work. Um some places are tougher

than others. I’ll leave it at that. Um but yeah, it’s it’s it’s really cool.

And then you know working on different different sizes of teams, different business models I’ve worked on like I

was in mobile before then I moved to uh AAA PC and console um like more

recently. But yeah, the the games industry is really good for that. It’s a really good place to, you know, you can

work anywhere. Your skills are transferable. So you even as a really junior level, you’ve really got chances to get work permits since that um

disaster that happened that was Brexit happened. Um that allowed it made it more harder to move. It’s uh it’s it’s

more problem, but you still get opportunities to work and live abroad in the games industry. So it’s also it’s

really awesome that that’s the case. Sweet. So if you’re speaking to Charlie

10 15 years ago and now that you’ve kind of worked at these different cultures, you mentioned that there’s a lot of

different cultures, right? So when it comes to someone who’s kind of more fresh or maybe someone who’s not worked

in different amounts of cultures, like what was the thing that you realized that was like, oh, did not expect that

and that maybe changed the way you either lead teams or do design? Um, so like I think in in Sweden um it’s

a really nice place to work. It’s it’s quite a a soft culture I should say. Um

the the work life balance people really appreciate work life balance. Um you know it’s a generally um I don’t know

like how much I can say because it sounds a bit cynical at times but you know it’s very much a sort of we’ll discuss it next week. We’ll we’ll align.

We have to get everybody aligned on things. So it’s quite meeting heavy. You want everybody to to

very democratic I’ve noticed. Definitely. Definitely like 100%. It’s it’s very much, you know, people are

aligned. It’s uh it’s it’s flat. It’s not I don’t think it’s quite as flat as people like to think it is. There is a

certain hierarchy in it. Um it doesn’t always feel like it’s as flat as they say, but it’s a really really nice place

and definitely democratic. You know, you’ve got everybody mixing in and you do have to come to some kind of agreement. um you know you have to also

be very you know careful mindful about how you speak with people um and like

how you you lead and like when you sort of get to that more directional type of leadership where you want to tell people

you need to do this there’s always ways you handle it um I’m learning that it’s it’s a really it’s really interesting um

but it is o overall like a really pleasant um other places are are not so pleasant so

it’s uh I want to touch in on this because I think this will be useful for people when someone’s disagreeing with you,

right? Let’s say stakeholders are pushing back on the economy choice you’ve made. Like how would you go about

defending it? Maybe if you’re like a newer to a business, like you feel like you know what you’re doing and someone

disagrees like how do you kind of defend your I guess choice

specifically like what you you know have done is you you want to in a structure

you want to obviously you know show that you’ve you’ve done the work and you’ve put the thought into it and that you have you know experience stuff and then

you want to show evidence I guess that that that this would work and then um in a in a bigger company I typically you

you’d want to take it to your manager and then try and escalate it to a director or something higher up and

you know of course in some level you have to pray on their goodwill that they’re they’re going to you know trust

their senior people or developers that have experience that they want to bring it to the table so you are reliant on

that a bit um but I think you know you you just want to be diplomatic about it

and then and then push it I mean the last thing you want to do is is sort of throw a tantrum and you know this is not

working and everything and become negative about it and cynical and stuff. I mean that generally doesn’t work I

think in any anywhere right. So I think it it follows that pattern. Um you know

you you you sort of want to like if things haven’t worked you want to look back and reflect and see how things can

better and generally show that quite senior experience mentality and then you’ll probably find that good things

will start to happen. um you know if like I myself have built games so I can always say to to like a director like

I’ve done this you know we want to do this but it honestly hasn’t worked the last several times so can we look at

some some other solution or something like that something along those lines I mean that usually we’ll find it works

especially it works here it’s a it’s a good way of approaching your your work life I think in Sweden as well

sweet so it’s coming at it with evidence like um maybe just to double click like

when multiple people are disagreeing cuz you also you lead a team right like you’re so when if some of your teams are

disagreeing like I feel like how do we get like multiple people on the same page like especially

with a game and a game building a game in today’s context is quite in my

opinion scary like cuz it’s not like before where I feel like you make a game

it does okay then you make another Like right now I feel like it’s like very boom or bust at least from my feed on

LinkedIn. Like it can be quite scary when like people disagree on direction

for example. At least this is from the outside looking in. Please correct me. So how do we get people to kind of get

aligned um as a leader? Um that’s like yeah that’s quite a an

intricate question. I mean I think you know you’re gonna have a complex you

know team. I think that there’s different types of of of leader I think also. So I think it depends on the type.

I I do more development management. So um I’m looking at different We can break down that like what’s your

experience? Um I mean my experience was like I have had experience of of being a lead where

I’ve you know my own company we were leads. um you can be like a craft lead for example where you’re you’re you’re

more you’re doing a portion of the job as well and getting people aligned on that um is you know you’re probably

going to have more coordination over and you can maybe be a little bit more directorial and you can say like we are

going to you know people should want to sort of follow your your example a bit um but at the same time um I’m actually

a little bit more disconnected from the the craft side of it so I’m looking at different people so getting people aligned is a little bit separate from

what I do at the moment. Uh but yeah um

I I mean it’s just it’s just about striking a balance I guess between um

you know making sure that somebody feels like they they’ve got agency to to work

on something and then and bring their own thing to table without micromanaging but also knowing when to step in and a

bit be more like directorial if something is faltering because it’s really important if things go wrong and

and people are are not performing for example you really have to step in and act on it and you you can correct that

for sure. Um but you also want to almost like let things happen and let people bring their own you know we have that

that way of working I think in many companies where you give people the the space to do their thing and almost like

let it explode to some extent and then then people will will correct themselves. If you’re just always

holding hands and and and d like you know doing it kind of everything yourself for one of a better expression

it’s it’s not going to produce the best results in the end and then people almost might not agree but they wouldn’t even let you know and you can’t get

people to open up as much. Um this this is my experience. It is quite a complex one to to to break down. Um yeah I

appreciate you know I mean we have to ultimately it is on some level right it is a job that we have to do. we, you

know, we we go in to build a product that you’re answerable to somebody. I think it’s the same in any career and

walk of life. Any career, you’re going to be answerable to somebody. So, you do have to at some point accept that you’re

a professional. It’s your obligation and you have to do uh the bit that you need to to do. So, um we can’t just all

disagree and and expect to to float really. Um, so yeah, I mean that’s the

best I can go, but it’s it’s it’s interesting like the balance between, you know, individual kind of coaching and bringing up people and then that

little bit of a team dynamic, but I’m definitely more into the at the moment into the the individual and seeing how we can kind of optimize their their work

performance. Sweet. Um, Charlie, this is just something that’s been on my mind recently. Just curious like when you

have a creative job like yours, but you also have people management. So I have I guess similar in my I have a content

agency so I’ll lead a team also go out and about and then I have to have time for deep work. Um the way I’m working

now is very different to how I started. Just curious like after 15 years like how do you structure your week your day?

Just curious. Uh it’s actually something we’ve we’ve had to solve because what we find is right when you you you might

find it very difficult to uh with you know with difficulty would probably be my answer if you have to do

uh leader work or or have a what we call a helicopter view of things and a strategic view of of of the product or

of the team. Um you know you’ve got kind of line part of the organization the project part of the organization. um

it’s very very hard to do that and then get into the nitty-gritty. So you really

need somebody else to do that. You know, you will start to falter almost certainly. This just what we’ve consistently found that that just

doesn’t work. You can’t be an analyst and and a mathematician and delving into thousands of complex numbers for example

and also being a having an overview. Um, and it depends. Just to double check, uh, Charlie, are

you saying that, for example, if someone’s a practitioner, an individual contributor, and then also managing his

peers, you’re saying that just doesn’t work in general, like in the long term?

No. Um, it’s a little bit more than that. So, what we generally find is that it depends on the number of people that

they have that they’re they’re managing. So a craft lead, for example, somebody that does a portion of their job is

people management and a portion of their job is the actual discipline. Um yeah,

the craft uh if if they have let’s let’s say like

four to five people reporting to them, it’s probably workable. The other thing that makes it workable is if their job

is more about producing something tangible where they know what to do and their team all doing more or less the same thing. Um producing things like

like content, for example, could be a good example, animations, whatever. If you’re leading that, you can you can have these people work and do it. If the

team that you’re working on are people who are designers, I find it especially hard with economy designers where, you

know, I have people reporting who cover live events, they cover other systems design, they they cover different

portions of game and each of those people have their own stakeholder management and they’re having problems

with communication. If you’re at the epicenter of that, it’s much much harder to, you know, get into the details and

lead and even even be a project manager type person for that that organization. It’s extremely difficult. Um it it’s

extremely stressful. You’ve got a lot of things happening that you just don’t know about. It’s like trying to look for a needle in a haststack without knowing

that you somebody’s lost it in the first place as it’s really really complex. So, um I think it’s it’s always like nicer

if if that you can almost separate that out. So you have somebody focusing on people and and bring up people and you

can have a you you can really divorce that from the the project part of it where you have somebody else who manages

the project. They’re kind of like a project manager. You probably have somebody else who is the feature owner who’s who’s more like a product owner um

in that sense and they’re they’re owning and and managing their own stakeholders there. So um I think it depends um again

on again the number of people reporting to summarize and the uh the type of job that that person’s doing at least that

that’s what we’ve you know picked up from my experience so far.

Fair. So with I guess like your days do you try to put your calls in the

afternoons for example? Like I’m just curious like do you have like deep work blocks? How do you structure the day? Um

usually I try it’s usually mixed bag. Uh now with what I do typically before when

I had if I was doing more craft type leadership um I would try and focus

calls maybe maybe in the middle of the week a little bit more. Uh that just seemed to be how it goes. I try to get

stuff out the way in the morning typically in terms of calls and stuff. I want when I needed focus time I’d need

to have a bit of a clean road ahead of me just so as I could get into it. um you know some of the

problems you solve are not know you can’t just say it’s going to take 20 minutes it could take as long as it takes a bit um so I try and get that

stuff out the way um now it’s the more people and people responsibility you have the you usually have a little bit

of more of an open schedule now it’s more you have to be just reactive really I mean you’re going to get curve balls

you know left right and center people will be people you’re going to have issues here this this person has a

problem or maybe somebody has a problem with what they’re doing or there’s some other problem so now it’s It’s you just never really know. And that’s part of

the fun of the work is that you go into work not really sure what the day is going to hold. Um it’s maybe not for

everybody. Some people just want to get in and and do the thing. I but I really like found that that now it’s a bit

open. So I don’t really have that that schedule. I can’t target certain parts. Um but you know, yeah, absolutely. You

can obviously block out focus time, right? You need few hours. You can you can mark focus time just whenever and you can you can get all the stuff. Um,

but no, normally now it’s a bit an open structure. Before it was maybe a bit more tangible.

Sweet. No, I’m just curious because I’m always um looking to see how people like structuring their day cuz I feel like

when you have that situation where anyone can take your time. I’m personally quite

scared of that because after a while I’ll be like ah I didn’t do that task I

wanted to do today because I did what this person need to do and I feel like in a creative role um

it’s quite hard to just I guess I don’t know stay on the ball. I just feel like

using the word hard a lot but yeah I just feel like you know making games very hard so I feel like managing oneself is also quite hard.

Definitely. Sweet. Um Charlie, before we wrap up, I’m just curious on the

is there anything you want to say on the economy side that we want to kind of maybe break some beliefs today? Like

anything that you want to say that you wish every kind of person working in game should know?

Uh so I think uh it’s uh

it’s a really good job game economy in general. I think it’s a a fascinating area. Yeah, I think it’s um something

that you know like it’s always um going to be like a very valued area of the

game. It’s almost quite a respected thing to do. Um it’s it’s generally seen as I have to be careful say it’s a

little one of the more difficult areas of game design um to do. It’s something Say it. Say it. You’re doing the hardest

job. My my job is harder than everybody else’s. Right. Um it’s it’s it’s it’s um

it’s quite a well-paying subset of game design. Um it’s and and you know you you

just find yourself like you know like you need a really solid education. It’s

really quite mathematical. It’s it’s just generally difficult. The problems you’re solving are harder. The the

stakeholder management you do is is harder and people are just typically a bit more senior. It’s a really cool thing. And the game education, by the

way, has got better, but it’s still I think it’s hard to to train as a game economy designer. You know, you can’t

just make a vertical slice in the same way as you can if you’re building levels and then show it. You need to prove it.

You need to build commercial projects and and show what you can do over a finished product because it really sort of takes shape and then it it’s a

finished product. They also think it’s just it’s really hard to test, I should say. You know, when you’re, you know, if

you’re building a gun, you can play, press play, and you can see if it feels good. When you’re building a game economy, you need all the stuff in. You

need all the bits moving. So, how do you test it? You know, you have to get that. How do you test it? How do I even break

into game economy design if I don’t I mean, have the ability to test it

if Oh, you mean if you how do you break into it as a job and stuff? How do you Yeah, cuz if I’m trying to get my first

ever job on game economy design, there’s probably very few companies willing to put resources into someone who doesn’t

know economy design. I’m assuming get uh get a good good sciency education. Um and then also you could

also look into breaking down and analyzing games from an economy standpoint. Get a job as a on the design

team to start with. Just you probably start as some kind of game designer, just straight up game design position.

Um, and then you can start focusing more on game economy systems and systems that

tie into it. You, you know, eventually you might the stars need to align a little bit. Maybe you got to start

building a crafting system or something like that and that’s going to tie into it. So then you would pro, you know, you could consider yourself a game economy

designer by in that sense. So you’re you’re doing bits. It’s it’s not black and white, right? There’s some people do

a bit of game economy design in their design, but it’s it’s really like getting into game design and working on that. Um, and the economy guys are going

to focus on that part of it. So, um, yeah, um, get into game dev, get a

really get, I can’t stress, get a really good education, um, as well. It’s it’s that kind of job that lends itself to

that that type of When you say good education specifically for game economy, do you mean math?

Uh, yeah. I I would say math, like computer science is always solid. Um,

you know, I mean, don’t get me wrong, like the games courses have got way, way better since I was, you know, 2004 when

I started studying it. And now the games courses, of courses are superb now. They’re way better. So, yeah, that’s

also awesome to to do that. But, um, yeah, math is a really really good

starting point for game economy. Um, computer science, other things. I mean,

it’s it’s uh economy econ economy degree we can call it. I I just

could uh I mean could could help but uh saying that was like the misconception a little bit. Too theoretical. I think man I think

it’s way too theoretical learning about economy at university. This is just me because like what are they teaching? The

economy is changing every year. I mean it’s like I don’t I’m not a Yeah,

man. My knowledge of macroeconomics is just not surprisingly not that good. Um there you go. And also you don’t need

that to be a game economist on the game anyway. That’s my thoughts. Um sweet. Uh Charlie, I want to close off with why

did you write a book? I my I was working away and then the

publisher um the acquiring editor, he somebody reached out to me um I think on LinkedIn um and said, “We’ve got an

opening, you know, we found your your profile. Would you be interested in in writing a book?” Um

I I’m not honestly sure why I was approached with that. Um but it was very very nice to be asked, so I pitched for

it. Um you go through a bit of a process. you you pitch, you you write some proposals, etc., and then it came

back with an offer. So, it was it was more something that just landed kind of in my lap. Um, but it was really nice to be offered the chance to to write it.

Um, and it’s like a it was written, I think part of it was that they they wanted like a

a sort of easily digestible guide for something, you know, something that’s quite a new discipline. Um, it’s not an

encyclopedia of the book. It’s not like the the really deep huge amount of of of theory and everything. It’s more like a

it’s written from a practical standpoint of what you do on the job and getting in and um you know the sort of basic skills

and everything like that. So um it’s a but it was a really cool project to write. It was really hard work because I

had to do that as well as release a game at the same time. So I was spending a lot of late nights, a lot of weekends writing. Um but it’s really cool to put

stuff on paper. You know, you really see kind of you know what information you know and what you don’t know and all the

gaps when you you start you start writing it down. So that’s game economy design, metagame monetization and live

operations by Charlie Czechovski. Amazing. So best way for people to find

that do you know? Is it just googling that online? Amazon. Uh yeah, Amazon and Google. You can buy

it off routage.com which is their the publishers website. You can get there. But Amazon is the best place.

Sweet. Perfect. Charlie, thank you so much. Anything you want to leave people with that we haven’t covered today?

uh only no matter what you know was happening

with with games and and the way the industry is it’s a really really awesome career. So, you know, regardless of what

what you do, um the games industry is is a ton of fun. Um people, we we have like

a lot of fun every day. We’re sort of surrounded by the thing that we are passionate about. Um you know, and you

go home, you play video games, you get your your your mind swimming with it, you know, and then you’re going every day and you’re you’re building them and

that buzz you get, you know, releasing is hard work, but then you get those releases and you’re surrounded by it. And it’s it’s a lifestyle really. It’s

not there. You don’t do it for the money. you. It’s a lifestyle rather than a job. Um, I would never do anything else. I’ve always I’ve always wanted to

do it since I was tiny. Um, and I still would always keep doing it. Sweet. Actually, the first time someone

described it like that. It’s a lifestyle cuz it’s interesting like no one shits

on doctors for working ages and ages with low pay. It’s like, you know, it’s

just like there’s almost Sorry, I just want to close with this. Um, like my

best friend, he recently just graduated as a doctor. He’s doing his residency. And it’s kind of a thing like he can

pretty much only date other doctors because it’s such a lifestyle thing. And I don’t know, hearing you describe like

the gaming career as a lifestyle. And making sure people understand that before they want to break in, I think

just frames it a little bit, right? Like you’re not just going to come in, clock out, clock out, clock in, sorry, clock

out, expect to get loads of money. Um it’s definitely something that you want to I guess live um in and out of work.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s it’s always so it’s always around you, you know, you never you’re you’re kind of uh

never away from it as such. Um but I I also love it around all other parts of

life. I have a lot of other interests and things I want to do and so I keep coming back to games as a thing that sort of my PlayStation makes my home

feel like a home, you know? So it’s it’s always there. Perfect. Charlie, where can people find you? get in touch.

I can reach me Charlie Lee Shakovski. My full name is on LinkedIn. Um that’s probably the best place like for

anything that’s um terms of like pro communic professional communication. Um you can find me on LinkedIn. Um and uh

yeah, that’s that’s definitely the best place. Sweet. Charlie, thank you so much. And everyone at home, subscribe.

It’s probably been a while. And yeah, definitely check the book and Charlie out. All righty. Thank you everyone. And

later.